Friday, May 5, 2017

Logging the Creation of a Beast -- the Good, the Bad, and the Template Metaprogramming.

Re: Friday, May 5, 2017

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Fri May 12, 2017 2:02 pm

Silverware wrote:
BFett wrote:Okay, so I like Silverware's suggestion and the colors he suggests: Red for Hostile, Green for dedicated Ally, Yellow for Neutral, Grey/Blue for unknown.

I personally would like Grey or white for neutral objects (such as containers, destroyed objects) and have Yellow reserved for unknown objects since those require caution (and caution is usually seen as yellow or orange in the real world)


White for containers and other detritus.

Blue for ships emitting IFF of a faction we aren't strongly aligned to.
Green for ships emitting IFF of a friendly faction.
Red for those marked as hostile, or emitting IFF of a hostile faction.

Might strip a Blue/Green target with red when they attack you. This would make it obvious that they were being a dick.

Yellow for ships we have detected *WITHOUT* IFF online.


This means that Yellow/Red are close enough that you will have caution, but different enough to hopefully keep low level color blind people from mistaking them.

That covers (in my mind) the five main categories of ships.


mostly agreed but replacing "emitting IFF" with "identified as"

when a ship has turned of its IFF but i know which one it is from other sources (eg by being in sight when it turns off its IFF system).

or from me being close enough to get a sensor reading good enough to get an unique identification.
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Re: Friday, May 5, 2017

Postby Silverware » Sat May 13, 2017 7:34 pm

IFF should be mostly unspoofable.

But wouldn't it be fun to be able to steal an enemies IFF and use it to sneak into their bases to smuggle shit in/out?
But then having someone do the same to you would suck, I do agree with that.

If LT had story missions I would make that a storyline thing. :V



As it stands though. To those above asking for colorblind options and configuration.
If there isnt a slider for every damned option in the game I will be sad.

Also if you want to provide a list of at least 4/5 clearly identifiable colors that we could use, then we could make those the default colorblind mode ones.


Ooo also a good idea for Josh. If the colorblind option is set, give the person a list of types (and a configurable custom one) so they can select which colors they cant see, and use that to impact the dynamic color grading to make things pop more for colorblind people too. :D
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Re: Friday, May 5, 2017

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Sun May 14, 2017 9:37 pm

Silverware wrote:IFF should be mostly unspoofable.


Who said anything about spoofing?

I only said that you dont need a target to cooperate to identify it :P
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Re: Friday, May 5, 2017

Postby Silverware » Sun May 14, 2017 9:57 pm

Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Silverware wrote:IFF should be mostly unspoofable.


Who said anything about spoofing?

I only said that you dont need a target to cooperate to identify it :P


Heh, I was mostly thinking forward a little from your message there. :V

The discussion I had with BFett on the IRC was a good example.
Basically you would break it to two systems.


IFF, which you could toggle on or off.
If it were on you could be seen by a ship out to a maximum distance based on their scanning system.
This would be a long distance, and a constant for ALL ships with IFF on.

You could then target the ship at a different distance, based on your scanning system, and their stealth system.
(Stealth wouldnt play into it with IFF)
This distance would always be smaller than the IFF distance.

You could only scan a ships internals once you target them (ideally automatically)
You could only get missile lock on a ship once you target them.

A ship in targeting range, without IFF on, would be visible to your systems.



This instantly gives you interesting game-play around stealth.
Turn IFF off, and build a good stealth system, and you could sneak into areas.

If you then make it so Police would consider having the IFF off as illegal, you could then keep IFF as long as possible, turning it on just before you get within targeting range, and avoid being scanned for as long as possible.



A ship specialized in stealth would be hard to detect and thus be useful for scouting, or smuggling, allowing both of these options as good routes for payment.

And the best thing? The entire system uses three values, and a point_distance between any two ships.
So it would be incredibly fast. It could also be updated only once every quarter second or so and you would get a neat radar blip effect with moving radar targets. :D
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Re: Friday, May 5, 2017

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Sun May 14, 2017 10:25 pm

Silverware wrote:IFF, which you could toggle on or off.
If it were on you could be seen by a ship out to a maximum distance based on their scanning system.
This would be a long distance, and a constant for ALL ships with IFF on.


What now? Based on scanner systems or a constant for all IFF systems? :P
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Re: Friday, May 5, 2017

Postby Silverware » Sun May 14, 2017 11:15 pm

Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Silverware wrote:IFF, which you could toggle on or off.
If it were on you could be seen by a ship out to a maximum distance based on their scanning system.
This would be a long distance, and a constant for ALL ships with IFF on.


What now? Based on scanner systems or a constant for all IFF systems? :P

Based on the scanner system. A better one increases it, it'll always be further than targeting distance. :V
Was trying to say that all ships with IFF on will be spotted at this distance for you.

IFF cant be sneaky :3
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Re: Friday, May 5, 2017

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Mon May 15, 2017 12:21 am

I'd say that the IFF range is still dependent on the ship to detect as well.
because scanner range isnt just a number on the detecting ship but also a function of the ship to be detected.
A small ship is harder to see at all ranges regardless of it being an explicitly stealthy design or not.
making "sensor range" a variable, not a constant value, a function of the sensor used and characteristics of the object to detect.
Making stealth something that arises naturally from how sensor mechanics work.
A stealthy ship is simply a ship with a small sensor return and not some special capability (in first iteration)

So, now back to IFF
IFF is a reactive system, only having an effect if your ship is in detection range at all.
Basically a "sensor blip, who are you?" System.
If you dont see a blip to challenge in the first place it doesnt matter if they had their IFF system active.

Making the whole thing a system of 3 (sensitivity, emissions, IFF switch) variables +range (or 5 (sensitivity, detection pulse strength, own emissions, reflectivity, IFF switch) +range if we differentiate between active and passive systems) with one of them being a binary yes/no question.
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Re: Friday, May 5, 2017

Postby Silverware » Mon May 15, 2017 12:31 am

I would suggest that Space IFF is instead an Active "Hello I am here, I belong to faction <blah>" rather than a reactive system.
If it is a reactive system you lose much of the stealth gameplay that I highlighted before. *ESPECIALLY* if you have police punishing you for running without IFF on.

The IFF modules are all based on the same basic module, which has no cost. And is the same for ALL ships (reducing a variable for all ships)

Then, the only thing you need to check is.

Code: Select all
All ships within MAX_IFF_RANGE_OF_SCANNERS
IF IFF_ON, DISPLAY_BLIP

All ships  within MAX_TARGET_RANGE
If SCAN_FUNCTION( SCANNER_STRENGTH, TARGET_STEALTH_STRENGTH, DISTANCE_TO_TARGET )
Then ALLOW_TARGETTING and DISPLAY_BLIP


Very simple logic, rather trivial to implement thanks to whatever bounding algo Josh is already using for Collisions.
And a simple function which can be offloaded elsewhere, allowing us to easily tweak targeting ranges and stealth.
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Re: Friday, May 5, 2017

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Mon May 15, 2017 1:04 am

Silverware wrote:If it is a reactive system you lose much of the stealth gameplay that I highlighted before. *ESPECIALLY* if you have police punishing you for running without IFF on.


Why would you lose the gameplay?

Silverware wrote:The IFF modules are all based on the same basic module, which has no cost. And is the same for ALL ships (reducing a variable for all ships)


Who made it a variable?
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Re: Friday, May 5, 2017

Postby Silverware » Mon May 15, 2017 1:11 am

Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Silverware wrote:If it is a reactive system you lose much of the stealth gameplay that I highlighted before. *ESPECIALLY* if you have police punishing you for running without IFF on.


Why would you lose the gameplay?

Silverware wrote:The IFF modules are all based on the same basic module, which has no cost. And is the same for ALL ships (reducing a variable for all ships)


Who made it a variable?



If it can be different per ship, then it's a variable. :V
Cornflakes_91 wrote:I'd say that the IFF range is still dependent on the ship to detect as well.



Maybe I didn't get the right impression of what you are saying.
But I think KNOWING where your IFF will be picked up, and where you can be targeted (in distance) from different strength sensors, would be part of the learning curve for stealth.
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Re: Friday, May 5, 2017

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Mon May 15, 2017 1:23 am

Silverware wrote:If it can be different per ship, then it's a variable. :V


But the system isnt different per ship.
It has practically infinite range to respond to queries from other IFF systems

Silverware wrote:But I think KNOWING where your IFF will be picked up, and where you can be targeted (in distance) from different strength sensors, would be part of the learning curve for stealth.


Yes, and both of those ranges are affected in exactly the same way by your ship's emissions.
More sneaky ship -> lower detection range
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Re: Friday, May 5, 2017

Postby IronDuke » Mon May 15, 2017 7:36 am

Silverware wrote:But wouldn't it be fun to be able to steal an enemies IFF and use it to sneak into their bases to smuggle shit in/out?

Ooh! Ooh! You can do this in Independence War 2! :D :squirrel: :train: Several times, in fact.

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Re: Friday, May 5, 2017

Postby Flatfingers » Mon May 15, 2017 7:45 am

Silverware wrote:I would suggest that Space IFF is instead an Active "Hello I am here, I belong to faction <blah>" rather than a reactive system.
If it is a reactive system you lose much of the stealth gameplay that I highlighted before. *ESPECIALLY* if you have police punishing you for running without IFF on.

Yes.

The notion of an IFF signal is that it's always broadcasting an identity claim. So under normal circumstances, you don't have to use either passive or active sensors to try to obtain information about the physical nature of another ship, because that ship is already providing that information via its IFF code and a notional local "registry" that can be accessed:

  • Your ship's passive sensors detect an IFF signal.
  • They send that information to your ship's computer.
  • The computer isolates the unique ship's registry number.
  • That number is looked up in the local registry database.
  • That database then gives you all the currently available information about the ship whose IFF signal you received.
So if this is the case, then there are three things you can do with an IFF system:

  1. Use it normally.
  2. Spoof it: provide an IFF signal that doesn't correspond to your ship.
  3. Turn it off: this is the option that enables "stealth mode."
Using either option 2 or 3 will normally be evidence of hostile intent, except for ships that are authorized by the local government faction to carry out undercover operations.

In an actual game, this outline could be implemented in greater or lesser detail. This is just some quick design thinking on how an IFF feature connects to the notion of stealthy gameplay in a space game.

EDIT: I should say, being caught using options 2 or 3 should get you flagged as hostile to all non-piratical factions. :D
Last edited by Flatfingers on Mon May 15, 2017 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Friday, May 5, 2017

Postby JanB1 » Mon May 15, 2017 2:08 pm

IronDuke wrote:
Silverware wrote:But wouldn't it be fun to be able to steal an enemies IFF and use it to sneak into their bases to smuggle shit in/out?

Ooh! Ooh! You can do this in Independence War 2! :D :squirrel: :train: Several times, in fact.

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I think I remember this from the first Freespace too. There was this stealth mission... :think:
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Re: Friday, May 5, 2017

Postby Graf » Tue May 16, 2017 7:51 am

This might be a bit overkill, but it would be cool to be able to broadcast multiple IFF signals in different directions. This would enable you to send your faction's signal behind you to your fleet to prevent them from firing upon you, but the enemy's signal in front enabling all sorts of nifty tactics. You could order your ship to look like a different thing to different people allowing you to be extra duplicitous.

Some color changing fish do this all the time to play information warfare with each other for mating purposes- i.e one side of a fish signaling that the fish is not interested in one fish, but is signaling on the other side that it is interested in a different fish. Fish are weird.
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