Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Logging the Creation of a Beast -- the Good, the Bad, and the Template Metaprogramming.

Re: Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Postby Dinosawer » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:07 am

I'm not talking about complexity, I'm talking about amount and the fact you didn't write the code you're extending/fixing/whatever.
Maybe you like searching an entire directory of files for a function, but I prefer ctrl-click to go to the definition.
Maybe you like launching the debug version and then attaching an external debugger every time you want to debug, but I find the "debug" button nice.
Maybe you like typing the full function name every time, I prefer to type the first two letters and press tab, cause it's faster.
Maybe you prefer having to compile to find all your syntax errors and typos, but I prefer saving time by having them red underlined as I type them.
etc etc
Ringu wrote:I don't think it suits everyone, but certainly some of us older hackers who didn't have IDEs tend to do this more than others. I think it's another case of an old skill being lost.

*insert "REAL programmers use Pascal"* :ghost:
More seriously, it's not a skill being lost if people know how to but don't want to.

You prefer not to use IDE's, what works for you works for you, but that doesn't mean it's better. It's better for you. Using and IDE is better for me.
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Re: Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Postby Damocles » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:25 am

(I have just installed a spell checker on my FireFox, so people stop laughing at my typing ;) )

Anyhow, your example with "starting up Word every time" does not really work. If you where to write lots of texts and responses during the day,
such as an online journalist, you would have your word-processor open all the time anyhow. (unless you can write really error proof and write it directly into the CMS)
When I start the day, I start eclipse, and it keeps normally running until I shut down that computing device. Not much time spend here.

But the syntax-error warnings are just one small tool in an IDE.

Let me use another likeness regarding the aforementioned context: If you want to recite a comment of a user (from a long time ago) you would likely use the search function of the forum or google's indexer. Here you use a tool to find a reference in a large body of text (code) and not try to remember where the post was and search for it manually.
That's the time-savings you get when your IDE can quickly find references, declarations and so on.

The IDE will not help much with the work on a complex part of code, but it can help in handling a LARGE body of code.

---
The reason for asking about an IDE was Josh's comment about the 100.000 code line mental memory limit. I just want to mention, that this could also be a sign of not using the right tool (eg VIM) to handle such a large body of code.
Last edited by Damocles on Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Postby 0111narwhalz » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:34 am

I do most of my coding in Google Docs or on the blank side of index cards. I've certainly gotten better at recognizing syntax errors by using such... adverse editors. I also do most of my coding with very simple programs and problems, so I don't often need the utilities a proper IDE affords.
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Re: Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Postby JoshParnell » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:57 am

Ok ok, settle down guys, let's not get religious about IDEs / text editors up in here. I feel very comfortable with my workflow -- I am extremely fast, both at extending & navigating my codebase in vim. I've been through LT development in Visual Studio, Sublime, Visual Studio Code, and vim. I've found the latter to be the most effective for my development, therefore I stick with it. It was a valid point, asking if a different set of tools to manage code would help me better manage a large codebase, and, having been through several and found a set of tools that I love, I think I can sufficiently put the question to bed by saying no, a different development environment is not what I need.

As Dino says, it's about what's better for you. Vim is better for me :)

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Re: Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Postby Graf » Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:10 pm

At least it wasn't the perennial Emacs vs Vim 'debate'. :P
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Re: Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Postby Talvieno » Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:20 pm

I prefer butterflies anyway. ;)
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Re: Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:21 pm

Steady hand and a magnetic needle!
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Re: Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Postby Lum » Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:59 pm

Clay wall and chisel... and that steady hand of your, CF :mrgreen:
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Re: Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Postby Ringu » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:51 pm

Dinosawer wrote:I'm not talking about complexity, I'm talking about amount and the fact you didn't write the code you're extending/fixing/whatever.
Maybe you like searching an entire directory of files for a function, but I prefer ctrl-click to go to the definition.
Maybe you like launching the debug version and then attaching an external debugger every time you want to debug, but I find the "debug" button nice.
Maybe you like typing the full function name every time, I prefer to type the first two letters and press tab, cause it's faster.
Maybe you prefer having to compile to find all your syntax errors and typos, but I prefer saving time by having them red underlined as I type them.
etc etc

Or maybe, (using Windows as an example - that was what I'd class as a large software project) - I didn't need to search an entire directory because I knew what the file that contained a function would be called because there were rules governing the names of such things. Maybe launching a debug version of Windows was not the kind of thing that you could do from within an IDE. Maybe the time difference between typing the full function name every time wasn't enough for us to care about. Maybe we didn't make any syntax errors or typos, so having the compiler stop the rare issues wasn't a problem either.

I don't think it suits everyone, but certainly some of us older hackers who didn't have IDEs tend to do this more than others. I think it's another case of an old skill being lost.

*insert "REAL programmers use Pascal"* :ghost:
More seriously, it's not a skill being lost if people know how to but don't want to.

You prefer not to use IDE's, what works for you works for you, but that doesn't mean it's better. It's better for you. Using and IDE is better for me.
De gustibus etc

That's exactly what I was saying, in a less concise way :-)
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Re: Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Postby Silverware » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:56 pm

JoshParnell wrote:Ok ok, settle down guys, let's not get religious about IDEs / text editors up in here. I feel very comfortable with my workflow -- I am extremely fast, both at extending & navigating my codebase in vim. I've been through LT development in Visual Studio, Sublime, Visual Studio Code, and vim. I've found the latter to be the most effective for my development, therefore I stick with it. It was a valid point, asking if a different set of tools to manage code would help me better manage a large codebase, and, having been through several and found a set of tools that I love, I think I can sufficiently put the question to bed by saying no, a different development environment is not what I need.

As Dino says, it's about what's better for you. Vim is better for me :)

:wave:


Man, we got religious about your existence or non-existence during the Dark Days, you can't expect us not to get religious about something as intimate as a personal development environment! :ghost:
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Re: Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Postby Ringu » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:00 pm

Damocles wrote:(I have just installed a spell checker on my FireFox, so people stop laughing at my typing ;) )

Forgive me, Damocles, if I came across as laughing at your typing - I absolutely didn't mean to give that impression. Your posts were always clear (to me, at least), typos and so on are really not a problem.
I was using your choice of not using a spell checker merely as an example of when someone chooses not to use a more complex editor, even when there may be reasons to do so.

such as an online journalist, you would have your word-processor open all the time anyhow. (unless you can write really error proof and write it directly into the CMS)

Funnily enough, having worked at the world's largest online news website, in their Daily UK Tabloid Newspaper reporter/journalist section, most of the journalists there do write really error proof and write it directly into the CMS.

When I start the day, I start eclipse, and it keeps normally running until I shut down that computing device. Not much time spend here.

Every time I ran eclipse, it would keep normally running for about five minutes :P

The IDE will not help much with the work on a complex part of code, but it can help in handling a LARGE body of code.

---
The reason for asking about an IDE was Josh's comment about the 100.000 code line mental memory limit. I just want to mention, that this could also be a sign of not using the right tool (eg VIM) to handle such a large body of code.

I hope now it's clear that my point was that not using an IDE is not necessarily a crazy decision, and that some people happen to work better that way. I'm not trying to say that you're wrong in supporting IDEs, or that they don't help, just diff'rent strokes.
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Re: Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Postby Ringu » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:01 pm

Silverware wrote:Man, we got religious about your existence or non-existence during the Dark Days, you can't expect us not to get religious about something as intimate as a personal development environment! :ghost:

+94 :-D
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Re: Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Postby Ringu » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:04 pm

Lum wrote:Clay wall and chisel... and that steady hand of your, CF :mrgreen:

To continue Dino's quotes, "REAL Programmers program directly on the bare metal" :-)
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Re: Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Postby N810 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:16 pm

Real programmers program before computers exist. :ugeek:
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Re: Tuesday, January 31, 2017

Postby Damocles » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:42 pm

Funnily I have worked on a game featuring Ada Lovelace as a main protagonist.
(a high budget RTS with dinosaurs , that did not turn too much of a success unfortunately)
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