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Deus Ex Machina: The Cyborgening

#1
So, some people *looks at Cha0zz* have been somewhat concerned about the balance between normal humans wearing spacesuits, cyborgs and cymeks.
For reference:
Cyborg: someone using cyborg bodyparts
Cymek: a brain in a robot body, either using replacement bodyparts or armoured bodyparts.
yes I stole the term from Dune, to distinguish between these two because people always get confused when I say I'm a cyborg
Normal human wearing suit: ...what do you think?
So, I listed the pros and cons of each:
Cymek:
Pros:
  • No need to breath
  • Can’t bleed out
  • Less susceptible to pain and thus blacking out because of it (if at all possible)
Cons:
  • Cannot wear suit: only choice between no and light armour
  • Armoured more expensive than light armour suit (3 creds vs 2)
  • Need to replace lost bodyparts (unless you bring them back with you) which costs money
  • Stims not possible
  • Painkillers don’t work
  • Antishock meds don’t work, so if you do faint you’re screwed
  • Susceptible to EMP (somewhat for armoured, strongly for non-armoured)
Cyborg:
Pros:
  • Harder to suffocate
  • Harder to bleed out
  • Somewhat less susceptible to pain
  • Stims work
  • All meds work
  • Self-mending
  • Can wear any suit
  • Armoured on top of that
Cons:
  • Still possible to suffocate and bleed out
  • Even more expensive than cymek (6 creds for full body)
Suit:
Pros:
  • Stims work
  • All meds work
  • Can wear any suit
  • Cheap
  • Suit repaired for free unless completely destroyed
Cons:
  • Can suffocate
  • Can bleed out
  • Feel normal pain and can pass out more easily

Cha0zz mostly had a problem with the fainting thing, which I think is fair enough, but the problem is that cymeks can't use meds - specifically antishock meds. Meaning that if they do faint, at -2 PSI that's basically "frak you, have fun sleeping the rest of the mission", whereas anyone else can just get antishock meds and wake up in a turn or two. Which wouldn't be very fair (or fun) either.
FIRE THE THOUGHTS CANNONS
Last edited by Dinosawer on Sat May 21, 2016 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Deus Ex Machina: The Cyborgening

#2
/me fires the thought cannon

First some corrections (or so I think >.>)
  • I think that cymeks can feel no pain at all (cause there are no organic parts on the limbs). ((this is the impression the wiki gives me))
  • An unarmored cymeg is free but more susceptible to EMP's than the armored one.
  • An armored cymek is as strong as a light armor suit and costs 3creds vs 2creds for the light armor
  • I think you only have to pay for a new limb if you lose it completely, not if it's damaged or you bring it back with you. You're right that they're easier to lose than a suit though.
I have not much problems with the cymek, I think that being vulnerable to emp, the slightly higher cost for armor and them being easier to lose is a fair tradeoff for invulnerability to suffocation and bleeding to death.
I have a problem with them not being able to pass out though. Why? Because passing out is a pretty bad thing if it happens to you and I don't feel like not being able to pass out on top of the other bonuses would make it unbalanced when comparing to regular armor.
That being said, I agree with dino that it would also be unbalanced if they can pass out but are unable to receive meds to wake them up.
So I either propose that cymeks are:
  • Are able to pass out like any other character and are able to receive meds that alter the state of the brain (since they still have an organic brain), this could be through a special liquid injection port that's directly connected to the brain. This would still allow them to receive meds to wake up while keeping them balanced.
  • Or they are able to pass out but there is an alternative to receiving meds to wake them up (some tool, something that can be found in a repair kit, etc)
About the cyborgs, I'm not sure. They seem rather strong even when taking their price into account.
They would be a combination of light armor and a nanite suit but without the disadvantages of the ninite suit. On top of that, they are harder to suffocate, are less susceptible to pain and can be combined with more armor, this would allow your total armor rating to go up to light armor + heavy armor.
I'm not sure if this is balanced, I'll need to think about it more.
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Idiots. Idiots everywhere. ~Dr. Cha0zz
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Re: Deus Ex Machina: The Cyborgening

#3
Cha0zz wrote:
  • I think that cymeks can feel no pain at all (cause there are no organic parts on the limbs). ((this is the impression the wiki gives me))
  • An unarmored cymeg is free but more susceptible to EMP's than the armored one.
  • An armored cymek is as strong as a light armor suit and costs 3creds vs 2creds for the light armor
  • I think you only have to pay for a new limb if you lose it completely, not if it's damaged or you bring it back with you. You're right that they're easier to lose than a suit though.
  • I'm not sure, tbh. Tal made Squidhead feel pain fairly often in mission 1, but mentioned him being unable to feel pain in mission 2. MAKE UP YOUR MIND TAL :ghost:
  • Aye, and also more fragile than normal limbs, so I don't really think a lot of people would do that except for RP
  • ...that's what I said
  • ..that's what I said too. And yes, they are. I'm at 4 creds for my limbs atm.
Cha0zz wrote: So I either propose that cymeks are:
  • Are able to pass out like any other character and are able to receive meds that alter the state of the brain (since they still have an organic brain), this could be through a special liquid injection port that's directly connected to the brain. This would still allow them to receive meds to wake up while keeping them balanced.
  • Or they are able to pass out but there is an alternative to receiving meds to wake them up (some tool, something that can be found in a repair kit, etc)
I would be fine with either of those. Preferably something that doesn't roll, like antishock meds, but I would be perfectly fine with having to shell out a cred for a cymek rebooting kit :ghost:
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Re: Deus Ex Machina: The Cyborgening

#4
Dinosawer wrote:
  • I'm not sure, tbh. Tal made Squidhead feel pain fairly often in mission 1, but mentioned him being unable to feel pain in mission 2. MAKE UP YOUR MIND TAL :ghost:
  • Aye, and also more fragile than normal limbs, so I don't really think a lot of people would do that except for RP
  • ...that's what I said
  • ..that's what I said too. And yes, they are. I'm at 4 creds for my limbs atm.
:
ehm yeah, those last two were more clarifications :oops:
I felt your "they're more expensive" sounded like the price difference was larger. >.>
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Idiots. Idiots everywhere. ~Dr. Cha0zz
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Re: Deus Ex Machina: The Cyborgening

#6
Also for reference IRC logs on the subject:

first one (reason I thought cymeks couldn't faint :P )

Code: Select all

*Dinosawer wonders how he is supposed to ever wake up if he passes out
<Talvieno>	hmm
<Dinosawer>	I don't think antishock meds work on cyborgs
<Talvieno>	I don't think you're allowed to pass out now.
<Dinosawer>	that would make sense
<Talvieno>	I'll just kill you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  
<Dinosawer>	okay
<Talvieno>	you'll have to knock out your teammates if you want more dreams.
<Talvieno>	be like goat.
<Dinosawer>	then again, most people pass out by lack of oxygen
<Dinosawer>	can't do that anyway
<Dinosawer>	:V
<Talvieno>	:V indeed.
<Talvieno>	unless your internals get damaged.
<Talvieno>	but then you'd die anyway. no fresh oxygen to the brain.
<Dinosawer>	oh yeah
<Dinosawer>	need some serious ouch for that
<Talvieno>	indeed.
second one from 2 days ago or so (cleaned up, origin of the cymek term. Thanks Victor :ghost: )

Code: Select all

<Cha0zz>	has dino ever fainted already?
<+Dinosawer>	nope
<+Dinosawer>	And now I can't anymore
<+Cha0zz>	that's surprising
<+Cha0zz>	?
<+Cha0zz>	you can't anymore?
<+Dinosawer>	Cyborgs can't faint
<+Cha0zz>	>.>
<+Cha0zz>	wut
<+Servius>	:V
<+taiya2>	._.
<+Dinosawer>	because otherwise i can never wake up again
<+Dinosawer>	since syringes don't work on me
<+Cha0zz>	>.>
<+Victor>	He can't smile eit.....oh never mind.
<+Servius>	Backup systems dawg
<+Cha0zz>	I'm not sure I like this
<+Cha0zz>	that bypasses the whole psi system
<+Dinosawer>	no, can still panic
<+Servius>	Can you be hacked?
<+Dinosawer>	also, I miss on all those awesome dreams you guys keep having
<+Dinosawer>	not that i know
<+Cha0zz>	yeah "awesome"
<+Dinosawer>	can be emp'd though
*	Smartflakes is now known as Squidhead
<+Squidhead>	bit late for that discussion, eh?
<+Cha0zz>	little chance though
<+Victor>	Aren't cyborgs part machine?
<Servius>	Aught to get a pool started on who can EMP Dino next missin
<+Cha0zz>	lol
<+Squidhead>	cyborgs are partially machine, yes
<+Dinosawer>	yes because I spent creds and points for armour and durability
<+Squidhead>	Servius, didnt yet happen to me :V
<+Dinosawer>	Squid is susceptible to emp, though
<+Servius>	Double or nothing Pool
<Servius>	Got to EMP both Squid and Dino in the same mission, or you don't get the pool
<+Dinosawer>	Extra fun: Dino shoots you as soon as you try to EMP him
<+Dinosawer>	:V
*	Servius grumbles about Dino being no fun
<+Dinosawer>	¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<Squidhead>	note: i will shoot you when you EMP me or dino :V
<+Dinosawer>	oh yeah, I shoot you if you EMP Squid, obviously
<+Cha0zz>	I think you should have an alternative to fainting that's as bad >.>
<+Squidhead>	his ass is mine, if someone nukes him its me
*	Servius grumbles about neither Dino or Corn being any fun and how alliances suck
<+Squidhead>	we can be EMP'd
<+Squidhead>	like, fatally
<+Dinosawer>	Cha0zz, doesn't work if we can't use antishock meds :p
<+Cha0zz>	that's the alternative for not bleeding and breathing Squidhead 
<Cha0zz>	Dinosawer that's why I said alternative
<+Dinosawer>	You can Squid, I'm armoured
*	Talvieno is back
<+Cha0zz>	:V
<+Servius>	Wait, you don't have to breath?
 <+Dinosawer>	nope
<+Cha0zz>	they're robots
<+Squidhead>	also i dont see a reason why we shouldnt faint from psychological influences
<+Cha0zz>	they don't
<+Dinosawer>	on the other hand, I can't wear a suit
<+Squidhead>	internal air supply
<+Squidhead>	"air"
<+Dinosawer>	so, pros and cons
<Victor>	Are you similar to a cymek now then Dino?
<+Cha0zz>	can't bleed, don't need to breath and are immune to fainting
<+Cha0zz>	hell I'm considering becoming one myself now
<+Squidhead>	victor: cybermen
<+Squidhead>	:V
 <+Dinosawer>	but can't wear a suit and it's more expensive
 <+Squidhead>	or daleks
<+Cha0zz>	only 3 creds
<+Dinosawer>	+extra money for whatever limbs you lose
<+Dinosawer>	It cost me 4 so far
<+Victor>	So he's more akin to a cyberman, Squidhead?
<+Squidhead>	me as well
<+Squidhead>	brain in a robot tank
<+Squidhead>	essentially
<+Dinosawer>	yup
<+Dinosawer>	except Squidhead is a squid, I'm still humanoid
<+Dinosawer>	:V
<+Cha0zz>	Talvieno what happens when a cyborg gets a roll that would faint a non-cyborg character?
 <+Squidhead>	i'd guess depends on the faint reason
 <+Squidhead>	blood loss less so
<+Squidhead>	psychological reasons, why not?
<+Dinosawer>	because antishock meds don't work
<+Victor>	That's a cymek.
<+Victor>	Do you retain freewill?
 <+Dinosawer>	yup
<+Victor>	Cybermen don't do they?
<@Talvieno>	Cha0zz - I guess then we answer the age-old question of "Do androids dream of electric sheep"
<+Cha0zz>	no
<+Cha0zz>	that's not what I ask :V
<Cha0zz>	dino says they don't faint
<+Cha0zz>	I ask what happens instead?
<+Cha0zz>	super panic?
<+Cha0zz>	shock?
<+Cha0zz>	the become catatonic? 
<+Victor>	You should be able to dream.
<+Servius>	Emergency shutdown protocol
<+Cha0zz>	they hallucinate of space ponies?
<@Talvieno>	You have a human brain, Cha0zz.
<@Talvieno>	Or, not you specifically.
<+Cha0zz>	everyone has
 <Talvieno>	But robots in REKT. They have human brains.
<+Cha0zz>	except unit
<@Talvieno>	Yeah, he'll probably just short out and die.
<+Dinosawer>	You can make me faint when you explain me how to wake up with -2 PSI and no antishock meds
<+Dinosawer>	:V
<+Squidhead>	Victor, that cybermen get part of a collective mind isnt construction bound, though
<@Talvieno>	Then you have a 16% chance of waking up per turn.
<+Cha0zz>	anitshock meds are directly transported to the brain through a special port in the robo-limbs?
 <+Squidhead>	yeah
<+Squidhead>	some medication port thingy
 <+Dinosawer>	I could live with hat
<outlander>	we can use repair kit to flip safeties back Dino
<+outlander>	:V
<+Dinosawer>	but tal said they didn't
<+Squidhead>	:V
 <+Dinosawer>	¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<+Cha0zz>	why not Talvieno ?
<@Talvieno>	Fortunately, as a robot, he can't really feel much in the way of pain.
 <+Victor>	I still think you're more of a cymek than a cyberman.
<@Talvieno>	which just means I get to chop up his limbs a lot.
<@Talvieno>	for fun.
<@Talvieno>	because it's fun.
<+Dinosawer>	yay
*	Cha0zz feels like his question is ignored >.>
<+Dinosawer>	does tartarus have bulk rates on legs?
*	Talvieno does not understands
<+Squidhead>	Victor, cant answer that because i dont know what a cymek is :V
 <Servius>	Dino - XD
*	Squidhead googled cymek
<+Squidhead>	yeah, pretty much victor
*	Cha0zz reread the thread, is still not sure what happens
<+Servius>	Honestly, looks about the same. If you're talking what I think you're talking about.
 <@Talvieno>	aw :(
<+Victor>	Cymeks are awesome on the killing fields. :)
<+Squidhead>	i intend to become one in real life if it becomes possible in my lifetime :V
<+Dinosawer>	Victor, my char looks like this now (WIP) http://i.imgur.com/5rsELca.png
 <+Cha0zz>	needs moar colour
<+SilverPhone>	:3
<+Dinosawer>	I know
<+Dinosawer>	that's what WIP means
<+Dinosawer>	:V
 <+SilverPhone>	muchflashbot
 <+Dinosawer>	yas
<+SilverPhone>	very redyellow
3 <+Victor>	How much is still flesh?
 <+Dinosawer>	nothing 
<+Dinosawer>	except the brain
<Talvieno>	Dino had the doctors chop everything else away, Victor.
<@Talvieno>	He's nothing but a brain in a metal shell.
<Victor>	Then you are a cymek, Dino.
<+Dinosawer>	OH RIGHT
<+Cha0zz>	so can cyborgs faint now or not? and can they use something like the anti-shock meds or not?
<+Cha0zz>	>.>
<+Dinosawer>	THose robot things in Dune
*	Dinosawer remembers now
<+Dinosawer>	Yes, I am
<@Talvieno>	Cha0zz - it would be very hard to faint, but if they did, then no, no anti-shock meds.
<+Cha0zz>	hmm
<+Cha0zz>	define very hard Talvieno 
[...]
<+Dinosawer>	Tal, I'll put "cyborg fainting rules" on your todolist :V
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