Which Features Would You Cut?

Want to reach a consensus? There's no better way than a poll!

What LT features would you be willing to give up?

Individual character AI guiding ship behavior
5
5%
Large-scale conflict/economic activity
5
5%
Dynamic level-of-detail (LOD) scaling
1
1%
Procedurally expanding universe
5
5%
Procedurally generated ships and stations
1
1%
Atmospheric graphics
3
3%
Moddability
17
17%
Ship designer/editor
7
7%
Ship component configuration
2
2%
Emergent production-based economy
2
2%
Tactical dogfighting
5
5%
Fleet operations
5
5%
Strategic empire management
10
10%
Factions
0
No votes
Colonies
5
5%
Research
7
7%
Asteroid mining
0
No votes
Detailed scanner/sensor operations
2
2%
Information as a commodity
9
9%
Slick, highly configurable user interface (UI)
8
8%
 
Total votes : 99

Re: Which Features Would You Cut?

Postby Talvieno » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:10 pm

My apologies, Smurfer. It seems I was the one misunderstanding you. :oops: I agree with most of what you said there. I'll try to reply to it all in full soon. I thought you were saying to rip it all out and replace it - which some people have indeed suggested.

I hope I didn't give offense.
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Re: Which Features Would You Cut?

Postby smurfer » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:27 pm

Talvieno wrote:My apologies, Smurfer. It seems I was the one misunderstanding you. :oops: I agree with most of what you said there. I'll try to reply to it all in full soon. I thought you were saying to rip it all out and replace it - which some people have indeed suggested.

I hope I didn't give offense.

As in my previous post: No, no, and no :D Meaning: all fine here, no offence, no need to apologize :)
These discussions are fruitful and interesting. :thumbup:
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Re: Which Features Would You Cut?

Postby masseffect7 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:38 pm

Based on my understanding, the whole LTSL thing was done at least in part to increase the moddability of the game. If I would have had a vote then, I would have voted against it then as well.
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Re: Which Features Would You Cut?

Postby Talvieno » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:40 pm

Moddability was merely a side effect, if I remember from the devlogs. I'll ask Josh about it at some point for clarity.
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Re: Which Features Would You Cut?

Postby FormalMoss » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:28 pm

Talvieno wrote:Moddability was merely a side effect, if I remember from the devlogs. I'll ask Josh about it at some point for clarity.


This is where it all started, TAL.

I've taken snippets from that page, and placed them here to entice people to read through the whole page.
Josh Parnell, July 2014 wrote:
Summary of the Week of July 13, 2014
- Finalized and revealed the UDF / LTSL syntax

Friday, July 18, 2014

Yes! Yes yes! Very excited about today. Today I finally closed out my work on UDF formatting and, hence, LT script syntax. I'm excited to share what I've got, since I've been keeping it under wraps.
The fastest way that I can explain the finalized syntax and general ideology behind the LT scripting language is as LISP without the parentheses. In other words, a more syntactically-nice LISP. As I've hinted at before, the language is functional in spirit. However, that doesn't mean that we can't make the syntax a bit nicer than what is usually found in functional languages!

In UDF, instead of requiring parens to delimit all expressions, I introduce a similar concept as Python, wherein indentation can also be used to delimit them. The best way to explain is through example, so let's see an example of an LT script!


Excuse me whilst I re-read Josh's enthusiasm.. :ghost:
YAY PYTHON \o/

In Josh We Trust
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Re: Which Features Would You Cut?

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:46 pm

It actually started a lot earlier, at least concept wise, when he started up with the UDF stuff and mused about including ship generation algorithms in it.
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Re: Which Features Would You Cut?

Postby Zanteogo » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:39 am

masseffect7 wrote:Based on my understanding, the whole LTSL thing was done at least in part to increase the moddability of the game. If I would have had a vote then, I would have voted against it then as well.


Myself as well.

JoshParnell wrote:Yes, those were back in the days when I was simply pumping out C++ as fast as I could. And there's nothing wrong with that. I could resume that approach today and have a much lesser form (and non-moddable) of Limit Theory out in a very reasonable timespan (and that's only because I've re-architectured the engine and now know how to prevent monoliths). But that's not going to happen, because, as my conception of Limit Theory matured, modding became something that I simply had to have. I want you all to be a part of Limit Theory's development. I want to see what people can do with this technology over which I have slaved for years. I want to play insane variations of my game that blow my mind. And it's all very much possible. I'm fine with dropping other content (especially content that has crept in since the original design doc) -- it can be appended later via modding. But I'm no longer fine with a non-moddable LT, and this is where the real challenge lies


http://forums.ltheory.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4859&start=180#p115867
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Re: Which Features Would You Cut?

Postby Lodis » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:25 am

Modding - I know lots of people love it but I've never really bothered apart from Third Age Total War, otherwise I just watch mods of games on youtube but have no real desire to play them.
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Re: Which Features Would You Cut?

Postby Velifax » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:32 am

I voted to wait on tactical dogfighting.

To me the higher tiers of spaceship combat have been exhaustively and admirably rehashed in dozens of games.

They also really lend themselves well to joystick or HOTAS usage.

Also, i suspect itll be one of the first things to be LOD'd out of existence.

Id be happy with LT combat being #Ships × Ship_Types = Strength.
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Re: Which Features Would You Cut?

Postby Flatfingers » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:03 pm

Velifax wrote:I voted to wait on tactical dogfighting.

The "I'm here for Freelancer 2.0" contingent may want to have a few words with you. Out back, in a dark alley. ;)

Which reminds me: where's Victor? I've been waiting for him to weigh in on Josh's return, but I don't think I've seen much. Hope he's OK.

Velifax wrote:Id be happy with LT combat being #Ships × Ship_Types = Strength.

Not to disagree, exactly, but this would be equivalent to "whoever has the biggest stick wins," wouldn't it? Winning any engagement would just mean showing up with the most & biggest ships. What about all the nifty NPC AI Josh might be implementing?

I suspect that (number * power) alone would wind up shifting what NPC AI learns wins battles from fleet tactics to winning an economic race by building the most ships faster than one's opponent.

If this is a problem, then the solution might be to introduce into your equation a "tactical competence factor" for each fleet. For a lightly-simulated region of space, this might be calculated based on a combination of skill level and experience at:

  • perceiving relevant local physical features (asteroids, rad zones, etc.)
  • identifying which features deliver offensive and defensive value
  • exploiting benefits and/or denying those benefits to the enemy
  • efficiently performing exploitation/denial actions as a group
  • doing all the above things faster than the opposing force can
Converting all these abilities into a Fleet_Tactics value would make the summary calculation:

Ships × Ship_Types × Fleet_Tactics = Strength

Fleet_Tactics -- the capability of that particular group of ships and their commanders to improvise, work together, and advantageously exploit local features -- is multiplied to the number of ships and their types because tactical prowess is, literally, a "force multiplier."

I don't care much for RTS play myself (when it's confused with strategic play, that is), but making tactics meaningful in fleet actions sounds like more fun to me than an arms production race.

Personal taste, probably.
Last edited by Flatfingers on Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which Features Would You Cut?

Postby Dinosawer » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:07 pm

Flatfingers wrote:Which reminds me: where's Victor? I've been waiting for him to weigh in on Josh's return, but I don't think I've seen much. Hope he's OK.


He said he'd be busier with assassin stuff this year, so I assume that. He last visited less than a week ago too, so I'm not worried yet. :)
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Re: Which Features Would You Cut?

Postby Miklos » Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:01 pm

I couldn't care less about the ship designer, I'm okay with the procedurally generated ones :) Also dogfighting is meh, I do not want to use a controller or joystick to play the game.

Exploration and finding ancient stuff (that is perhaps more technologically advanced) like a ship and repairing it so you can fly it would be a dream come true :)
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Re: Which Features Would You Cut?

Postby BFett » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:34 pm

A more interesting question is "How would you define Limit Theory?" because that definition boils down what LT really is.

For me LT is a space themed economic sandbox where the player is treated equally to the AI. Player freedom is paramount and choice matters.
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Re: Which Features Would You Cut?

Postby Flatfingers » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:49 pm

I want to know who these people are that are trying to cut strategic empire management.

I will fight you!

:lol:

No, not really
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Re: Which Features Would You Cut?

Postby BFett » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:32 am

How do you define "strategic empire management"? I initially chose it thinking that the feature either wasn't planned for 1.0 or that it would occur so late in the game that it really didn't need to be in the first version of the game.
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