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Is it fair to open pre-orders in exchange for offering backer refunds to those who want out?

Yes, allowing backers who've lost confidence in the project to pull out is worth breaking the principle of "no more funding."
Total votes: 24 (27%)
No, sticking to the principle of "no more funding" is important, just gently remind backers that they're not entitled to a refund unless the project is dead / ultimately does not deliver on promises.
Total votes: 65 (73%)
Total votes: 89
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#34
While I would vote no, but I have to admit that I believe pre-orders could be opened up not because you need the additional funding but because some people would like to buy in who managed to miss the kickstarter for whatever reason. Yes you have had you reasons for not doing this in the past. Those reasons as far as I know have not changed nor do they need to change. However, the development of LT has clearly not panned out the way you would have liked.

So I would suggest another poll to gauge how many Kickstarters would somehow feel as though their pledge was lessened if others were allowed to buy in especially for beta. Especially those who have been with the community long term.

Anyway those are my thoughts, I'm sure I'll be slammed for them as I know a lot of people probably feel as though you should stick to your principles no matter what. Which I'd completely agree with 100% if things went exactly as had been anticipated.
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#35
I would suggest opening up preorders.
On the proviso that the extra funds go to you, not LT.

LT needs to hit 1.0 with it's current funding.
But you are the one many of us want to support. :D
So preorders to give funding to you to buy better food, or get your Female over more often, or hire more Psychiatrists, or hire web devs to do the site/forums up more. etc.

I am entirely sure that LT can hit 1.0 with your current level of funds in a reasonable time frame.
But I would love to preorder the game to make sure you can afford to splash out on yourself, and keep yourself sane. :P
°˖◝(ಠ‸ಠ)◜˖°
Toba - A Development Dump
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#36
Silverware wrote:I would suggest opening up preorders.
On the proviso that the extra funds go to you, not LT.

LT needs to hit 1.0 with it's current funding.
But you are the one many of us want to support. :D
So preorders to give funding to you to buy better food, or get your Female over more often, or hire more Psychiatrists, or hire web devs to do the site/forums up more. etc.

I am entirely sure that LT can hit 1.0 with your current level of funds in a reasonable time frame.
But I would love to preorder the game to make sure you can afford to splash out on yourself, and keep yourself sane. :P
That's a very good idea imo. I know I'm being somewhat selfish in that I'd like to back/buy in. I don't really wanna say pre-order because I'd actually like to be able to buy into the beta, unless Josh can confirm that it will be a short beta. I don't wanna end up sitting on the sidelines with a 3-6 month beta happening that I can't get in on simply because of principle. Had the game met its original expectations I wouldn't mind so much, but given how long it has blown out to, I'd personally find that extremely frustrating.

However I do understand why he has the principle and I can respect it. I even agree with it to a point, but that point to me has dwindled to nearly nothing once the game was a year past it's intended release date. Up to that point I was completely behind it, I was completely okay with it and I was happy to wait. My perspective now though is that enough has changed and shifted in the project that the original principle can be modified to let more people in. I apologize to the kickstarter backers for those of you who wanted some exclusivity but when a project is well past a year beyond its projected date and we've all been sitting (im)patiently waiting... I think at this point... we're all in this together.
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#37
As much as I'd like to pre-order the game, the original promise should be honoured. And the amount of negativity is probably exaggerated as people who are upset tend to be very vocal about it, and then stick to their point even when their demands are satisfied. Especially when their demands are satisfied. Those folks are just messed up weird.

Legally the project is in the green as the work is being done, funds are being used for the purpose of completing the game, and the progress is communicated once in while. A cheap and dirty way would be to post a screenshot with a brief description once a week when you feel like it; but I bet it won't satisfy the 'give me my money back oh God Josh is a fraud I've lost my faith' crowd. That's probably because they are operating based on faith - beliefs and emotions, and not on objective, evidence-based perception of reality. I'm sure that when the game is done, some of them will make a fuss of not playing it because they feel cheated or mistreated in some way by Josh.

There's no way to appease them, and to be honest I see no reason to do that.
Image
Survivor of the Josh Parnell Blackout of 2015.
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#40
It may be a biased opinion since I am a backer, but the whole reason you back someone on Kickstarter is you like what they are doing and you are supporting them in order to do it. You are not buying anything. The "reward" is for if and when they finish the project. The $$ you put in to the project does not pay for the reward, it pays the person you are supporting to create or do what they said they would. So, no, people should not get a refund, just like you shouldn't ask for a refund on a donation towards World Vision if the child you are supporting doesn't grow up they way you wanted. It is just selfish.

Josh, I backed you during the Kickstarter campaign, and I back you now. The, so-called, "tardiness" of the project has not at all turned me off to your vision. Ignore, as much as you can, all the whiny, spoiled babies, because your true backers (monetarily or not) are here, and here to stay!

LT to Life!
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#41
It's a definite no from me.
Josh, most of us are still here that backed LT. We have been, are and will always be here. I've been around long enough to know that with any project your going to hit bumps along the road sooner or later. What ought to be done in such situations is to pick ourselves up off the ground, dust ourselves off and keep on moving.

You will get this game done Josh, of that I have no doubts at all. It's been a journey for you and (in our small way) we too have been along with you on that journey. We both, you and most of the fans, are in this for the long haul and it's for that reason I say stick to your guns on the refund/new funds issue and keep going along that road as you are. In the long run even those who are vocal about wanting out will still get a great game at the end of the day and what's more they will learn that actually making a game with the scope of LT isn't something that can be knocked together in a few weeks by one person coding from scratch on their own.

The best works of art always took their toll and their time.

I recall reading someplace about Leonardo Da Vinci being under pressure from his "patrons" to get his latest painting finished or latest engineering design done, his response was that true art takes its own toll on it's creator and it''s own time. LT is true art, it has taken it's toll and it will take its own time that it needs. Your creating LT Josh but LT is also (in it's own way) bringing about changes in you also. Its in the process of making one of the most talented game devs I have ever had the fortune to come across and in the long run you will look back on this and know it was LT that brought you to were you will be in that bright future that awaits you. :)
Geraldine ;)
Smile People, Space Sims Are Coming Back!
Happy Days Are Here Again :D
Keeping The Faith In Josh Since 2012 :)
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#42
As a long-long time lurker (signed up for the forum in 2013 ... and this is my first post) I'd say no to both, at least for now.

Refunding pledges that you can't fulfill (like the Elder Council) seems reasonable, but I can't see how refunding standard backer pledges just to try and appease people would be a good thing. It'd be way better to just show some progress and update KickStarter so everyone knows the status of things. I can only imagine this would appease people more than just offering refunds.

I backed at the combat prototype level, myself, and while I'm on the fence whether or not it was "worth" it, I can't really see a good legal reason I should be refunded. Of course, if a revised combat prototype made its way to me .... (nudge nudge wink wink say no more)


And opening up to pre-orders... I can't see any good coming of that right now. Steam "Early Access" stuff, for example, has kind of taken a beating with games that show up and then never update or just suddenly release as "version 1.0" and saying they're done, without doing anything they said they would (*cough* SpaceBase DF9 *cough*) I know I'm personally extremely hesitant to commit to preorders and early access these days due to stuff like that, and often times I'll give something one look, see all the people complaining about the lack of progress on the forums, and I'm never back again. I can't be the only person like that.

Get things mobilized and in a good state, maybe release a prototype / beta to backers who were in at that level (did I mention a new combat prototype for that level of backer?) -- get everyone's confidence back, get some feedback on the state of things after some testers have tried it, and even maybe get it in the hands of some reviewers or something, *then* get a pre-release going and you'll be in business!


Just two cents from a periodically disgruntled, but still apparently patient prototype backer!

(.. and I could be completely wrong about everything here)
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#43
I voted no.

If I understand the rules of KS correctly, a dev must be working on said project in order to fulfill the obligations to backers. So in my opinion, for any legal action that might be brought against a dev, they would have to prove the dev has failed to continue working on the project. What judge would condemn a man for taking a hiatus, because of health issues created by his commitment, dedication and drive in creating the actual product?

It only PROVES that he is working extremely hard to fulfill his obligations to his backers, not the opposite. So much so that it impacted his health. The fact that he has put so much effort into completing this game that it impacted his health, only speaks of his dedication to the project, and his willingness to go beyond what most devs would do, especially in his honesty and forthrightness, not to mention the hours upon hours of work.

Even if the game never got finished (which I know won't happen) I would not be upset, disappointed maybe, but at least I would know that he gave it his best shot, and that it was not for lack of trying.

So Josh, stick to your guns and keep your integrity.


Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, but I think my logic is correct. :P
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#44
Poet1960 wrote:I voted no.

If I understand the rules of KS correctly, a dev must be working on said project in order to fulfill the obligations to backers. So in my opinion, for any legal action that might be brought against a dev, they would have to prove the dev has failed to continue working on the project. What judge would condemn a man for taking a hiatus, because of health issues created by his commitment, dedication and drive in creating the actual product?

It only PROVES that he is working extremely hard to fulfill his obligations to his backers, not the opposite. So much so that it impacted his health. The fact that he has put so much effort into completing this game that it impacted his health, only speaks of his dedication to the project, and his willingness to go beyond what most devs would do, especially in his honesty and forthrightness, not to mention the hours upon hours of work.

Even if the game never got finished (which I know won't happen) I would not be upset, disappointed maybe, but at least I would know that he gave it his best shot, and that it was not for lack of trying.

So Josh, stick to your guns and keep your integrity.


Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, but I think my logic is correct. :P
Also not a lawyer, but agree with you (!)

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