Well, BFett, some people don't associate themselves with their biological sex, because gender is as much psychological as it is physical (if not more). Those people also don't necessarily want to explain that online. Hence 'other'.

BFett wrote:Change Neither to Both and I might agree... but being neither male or female means you have bladder problems.

Gender is different to sex. What gender you identify as has no bearing on what genitalia you have. Sex is determined by parts, gender is determined by... personality traits, for lack of a better term. (EDIT: I of course mean that an individual chooses their gender, their personality traits influencing their choice.)

Life is complicated, and although men are biologically (and not just socially) the 'risk-takers, warriors, hunters' of the species and women are biologically the 'cautious, nurturers, gatherers' of the species, sometimes it goes a bit wrong and someone is born with a penis but has all the cautious, nurturing, gathering traits.

Even accounting for biology, to say that it's merely a case of genitalia determining it is to deny the differences between men and women generally. And while one warrior with a vagina may be happy to call themselves a woman, another may feel they prefer to be a man, and yet another may be uncomfortable with either label.

At the same time, I think people are too quick to jump on anyone saying it's a mental condition. While in many cases it may be that they just have the wrong part, certainly in some cases it's a symptom of a bigger problem (as evidenced by their increasing depression post-transition). It's not something that can be applied to with a blanket generality, but needs to be assessed on a per-individual basis (as I believe is often done).

It's a difficult subject, to be sure. But any solution has to take into account that there are many biological differences between men and women (not just the parts), and so calling it a "social construct" and allowing people to identify as mayonnaise is making a mockery of it.

Given that FEMALE and MALE are known biologically distinct pools (with a small margin of error), it makes sense to allow people to identify as one of those two. Areas outside of these pools are not established with any biological regularity, and as such cannot be reasonably distinguished from one another; however, this area certainly does exist, and therefore a NEITHER option is appropriate. And finally, some people just don't know, and that's fine too.

That's my justification, anyway. I'll concede a BOTH option if I have to.

Okay, I don't understand that way of thinking nor have I talked to anyone who feels that way. I respect their thoughts even though I may not agree or understand the conclusion.

It is very foreign to me and that is why I have asked questions. I hope I haven't upset anyone.

DigitalDuck wrote:

BFett wrote:Change Neither to Both and I might agree... but being neither male or female means you have bladder problems.

Gender is different to sex. What gender you identify as has no bearing on what genitalia you have. Sex is determined by parts, gender is determined by... personality traits, for lack of a better term. (EDIT: I of course mean that an individual chooses their gender, their personality traits influencing their choice.)

Life is complicated, and although men are biologically (and not just socially) the 'risk-takers, warriors, hunters' of the species and women are biologically the 'cautious, nurturers, gatherers' of the species, sometimes it goes a bit wrong and someone is born with a penis but has all the cautious, nurturing, gathering traits.

Even accounting for biology, to say that it's merely a case of genitalia determining it is to deny the differences between men and women generally. And while one warrior with a vagina may be happy to call themselves a woman, another may feel they prefer to be a man, and yet another may be uncomfortable with either label.

At the same time, I think people are too quick to jump on anyone saying it's a mental condition. While in many cases it may be that they just have the wrong part, certainly in some cases it's a symptom of a bigger problem (as evidenced by their increasing depression post-transition). It's not something that can be applied to with a blanket generality, but needs to be assessed on a per-individual basis (as I believe is often done).

It's a difficult subject, to be sure. But any solution has to take into account that there are many biological differences between men and women (not just the parts), and so calling it a "social construct" and allowing people to identify as mayonnaise is making a mockery of it.

Given that FEMALE and MALE are known biologically distinct pools (with a small margin of error), it makes sense to allow people to identify as one of those two. Areas outside of these pools are not established with any biological regularity, and as such cannot be reasonably distinguished from one another; however, this area certainly does exist, and therefore a NEITHER option is appropriate. And finally, some people just don't know, and that's fine too.

That's my justification, anyway. I'll concede a BOTH option if I have to.

Hear, hear! I'd add the "both, neither," etc. options to the poll at this point, but I think "other" puts it nicely.
Well, at least we aren't as complex as fungi; many mushrooms have over three hundred sexes!

Edit:

BFett wrote:Okay, I don't understand that way of thinking nor have I talked to anyone who feels that way. I respect their thoughts even though I may not agree or understand the conclusion.

It is very foreign to me and that is why I have asked questions. I hope I haven't upset anyone.

That's okay; I think you just came off as very narrow-minded, that's all.

Seryth Nortra wrote: Well, at least we aren't as complex as fungi; many mushrooms have over three hundred sexes!

Yeah, that's actually evolutionary beneficent, since it increases the chance of procreative compatability (those mushroom have 299/300 chance of being able to procreate with any given other mushroom, animals only 1/2) which is handy since mushrooms don't have a very active social life.

Dinosawer wrote:

Seryth Nortra wrote: Well, at least we aren't as complex as fungi; many mushrooms have over three hundred sexes!

Yeah, that's actually evolutionary beneficent, since it increases the chance of procreative compatability (those mushroom have 299/300 chance of being able to procreate with any given other mushroom, animals only 1/2) which is handy since mushrooms don't have a very active social life.

True. I still think, since we basically rule the planet, that having 300 sexes would be too complex. You're right, though, and it's fascinating! Fungi are so weird in so many ways...

BFett wrote:Okay, I don't understand that way of thinking nor have I talked to anyone who feels that way. I respect their thoughts even though I may not agree or understand the conclusion.

It is very foreign to me and that is why I have asked questions. I hope I haven't upset anyone.

Very few people make an effort at all to consider the concept, even after an explanation. You're awesome :3

But yeah, basically what Duck said: sex =! gender. Humans love their little labels and boxes, but some just don't feel like they are able to fit into the two narrow descriptions defined. It's like saying 'you are either Republican or a Democrat, no middle ground', and I'm like, uhh, I don't even understand either, let alone being one. Just let me enthuse over tanks and paint my nails alright

Maybe for uniqueness sake this topic should deal with the sex a person was born as instead of making it a second topic on gender. The title implies as much doesn't it? If Male or Female isn't a gender question but instead a sex question.

I hope that's clear .

But sex is nun uff ya bizniss. I mean, you don't go around asking people 'hey what in yo pants', you ask 'hey what do I relate to you as, shake hands or hold door open?'. Or something like that. Sex is important when you want to copulate or for medical records. I mean you can ask, no harm done, but it's not really a meaningful question.

Mistycica wrote:But sex is nun uff ya bizniss. I mean, you don't go around asking people 'hey what in yo pants', you ask 'hey what do I relate to you as, shake hands or hold door open?'. Or something like that. Sex is important when you want to copulate or for medical records. I mean you can ask, no harm done, but it's not really a meaningful question.

If you meet someone in person it is usually obvious if the person is male or female.

(Usually, being 98% of the time or more.) If I had a year book photo of every member on the forums I know I could accurately guess each persons sex.

I AM HEAVILY OFFENDED BFETT



jkjk

BFett wrote:If you meet someone in person it is usually obvious if the person is male or female.

(Usually, being 98% of the time or more.) If I had a year book photo of every member on the forums I know I could accurately guess each persons sex.

You get a good idea of what that person wants to be seen as, not necessarily birth sex. And that is in person, on the internet it's a lot less obvious, and holds even less relevance.

Everyone has the right to be who they want. I am...ghost!

Mistycica wrote:But sex is nun uff ya bizniss. I mean, you don't go around asking people 'hey what in yo pants', you ask 'hey what do I relate to you as, shake hands or hold door open?'. Or something like that. Sex is important when you want to copulate or for medical records. I mean you can ask, no harm done, but it's not really a meaningful question.

You don't know that.

Seriously, this is a great story.

Had a friend in high school who was so incredibly timid and shy but wanted to be able to meet girls. Me and another friend put him up to a bet to incentivize him. Bet him $100 that he wouldn't be able to stand out on the corner of the 16th st mall (major outdoor mall here in Denver) and ask for a kiss from every girl that passed by.

Best $100 ever spent. He got slapped a few times (some of which were downright hilarious), but he did get a few kisses, and one hot chick that ended up making out with him for the sheer novelty of it. He never had issues with talking to the fairer sex, nor speaking in public, and ended up becoming quite charming (IMO).

Yeah, it's not the same thing as asking "hey, what in yo pants", but I think it works as a decent anecdote.

That story tickled me.