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How would you like fuel to work in Limit Theory?

Bah. Energy drinks are all the fuel I need!
Total votes: 12 (9%)
While I like the concept as fuel as a resource to be gathered, made and sold, I still feel actually using fuel should not be a functional part of the game.
Total votes: 27 (21%)
"Fuel" is only needed in order to start the reactor that ships use for energy/propulsion. This gives fuel value for building ships without making it particularly functional ingame.
Total votes: 13 (10%)
Only larger ships should need to use fuel, as smaller ships should have far more efficient engines. Running out of fuel in distant space is a Game Over/Deadlock.
(No votes)
Only larger ships should need to use fuel, as smaller ships should have far more efficient engines. Running out of fuel in distant space means sending a distress message for help.
Total votes: 2 (2%)
Only smaller ships should need to use fuel, as larger ships should have far more efficient engines. Running out of fuel in distant space is a Game Over/Deadlock.
(No votes)
Only smaller ships should need to use fuel, as larger ships should have far more efficient engines. Running out of fuel in distant space means sending a distress message for help.
(No votes)
All ships use fuel. Running out is a Game Over/Deadlock.
Total votes: 3 (2%)
All ships use fuel. Running out means sending a distress message for help.
Total votes: 9 (7%)
Fuel requirements should be different depending on the type of engine/drive the ship uses. Merely as an example, one slow type of engine may not use fuel at all while a fast engine might. Running out of fuel in distant space is a Game Over/Deadlock.
Total votes: 1 (1%)
Fuel requirements should be different depending on the type of engine/drive the ship uses. Merely as an example, one slow type of engine may not use fuel at all while a fast engine might. Running out of fuel in distant space requires sending a distress signal for help.
Total votes: 30 (23%)
Fuel is a part of the game. When it runs out, ships can use some form of an emergency power source instead, which may make their ship slower and/or more vulnerable but allow play to continue.
Total votes: 17 (13%)
Full speed requires fuel but ships can limp along at half speed if they run out.
Total votes: 1 (1%)
Basic engines use fuel, but as they get more advanced fuel requirements drop until they perhaps eventually disappear if researched enough in the right way. Running out is a Game Over/deadlock.
Total votes: 3 (2%)
Basic engines use fuel, but as they get more advanced fuel requirements drop until they perhaps eventually disappear if researched enough in the right way. Running out means sending a distress call for help.
Total votes: 5 (4%)
Fuel is needed for scanning/weapons/mining. You can travel without it but can't really do anything.
Total votes: 1 (1%)
Other (Please specify!)
Total votes: 6 (5%)
Total votes: 130
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Re: Fuel Part 2

#106
Let's make it a slider!

I personally hate the idea of fuel except for uses in high-speed movement or something like in the X-games. If you want to warp to a different sector rather than simply flying there, you need energy crystals or w/e(Been awhile). Otherwise you are fine. It just seems like an extra tedious thing to have to keep an eye on...but if I find that fuel is really easy to come by and creating a supply line isn't a pain in the ass to setup, then I wouldn't mind. A lot of this can be discussed to death until we actually see how complex/simple the game is. If it is very very simple, let's add in a few variables. If it is super complex, then let's ease off a few things so that it isn't "I spend more time trying to keep track of fuel than anything" or "I was in the middle of a huge battle and my fuel ran out! SO F*(@&%(&@( ANNOYING!"

Things like that can turn off players very easily...but hardcore players may see it as a huge challenge. Many spectrums of players but I'll entertain the idea of fuel being needed.
Image "Everyone needs to have their avatar's edited to have afros." -Charley Deallus
Post

Re: Fuel Part 2

#107
I'm still a fan of fuel being purely a strategic resource requirement.

For tactical stuff -- one small ship inside one system -- there should be no fuel requirement. (Let's say that in-system drives are regenerative, or powered by the same magical "space flux" thingie that power warp rails, or some other explanation for why there's no need to refuel a small ship pottering around inside one star system.)

But for large-scale operations and strategic moves -- large fleets of big ships crossing several system boundaries -- very large fuel requirements should serve as a gating factor preventing lots of ships from all showing up someplace with no warning. If something doesn't slow down titanic Death Fleets from instantly leaping multiple systems at a time to a target, you don't have a strategic game. That's a tactical game.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;) If someone wants a "bang, all of a sudden you're entirely dead, nothing you could do about it, game over" kind of game, then I'd support their being able to turn off fuel as a strategic requirement. And it wouldn't affect at all someone who just wants to play a tactical game in one star system.

But IMO big fuel requirements for big fleets really ought to be a factor in a game of epic proportions. That's what would enable research and production and finances and diplomacy to play meaningful roles in a high-level game.
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Re: Fuel Part 2

#108
Flatfingers wrote: But for large-scale operations and strategic moves -- large fleets of big ships crossing several system boundaries -- very large fuel requirements should serve as a gating factor preventing lots of ships from all showing up someplace with no warning.

[…]

But IMO big fuel requirements for big fleets really ought to be a factor in a game of epic proportions. That's what would enable research and production and finances and diplomacy to play meaningful roles in a high-level game.
Hm... this could even be a variation of "high power needs dispropornately more fuel". :think:
The process of using a wormhole could be an energy intensive process, so when you want to jump you have to power up and burn much more fuel in doing so.

to me it just seems... inconsistent if some processes need extra fuel and some not.
At least lore wise everything should need fuel in some amount, even if it then says "non special actions have neglectibe fuel needs"

Also: with some kind of passive fuel collection energy production would be regenerative ;)
Just dont expect to run at full power all the time.

tactical fuel needs would improve the value of actions like surprise attacks.
Because, without limitations why should you ever bother to conserve energy and lower shields or similar behaviour
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Re: Fuel Part 2

#109
Even with "free" energy for in-system activity, there's still tactical gameplay in deciding how to allocate power among ship systems, especially the weapons / shields /maneuver triangle.

To turn the question around: how many people would find it enjoyable to run out of power in the middle of an extended battle?

I personally don't object to the "everything needs fuel" idea. But that view probably lives well to one side of the "most fun for the most people" balance point. Most people, I'm guessing, would find it not-fun for their exciting tactical space shoot-em-up to be interrupted by having to visit the nearest gas station. ;)

"Fun" is sort of an answer to the "lore" objection as well, I think. The gameplay's pretty important for LT -- if a reason is needed for why in-system flight ops don't require fuel (but strategic ops do), I'd think some explanation could be imagined that satisfies most players.
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Re: Fuel Part 2

#110
First, thank you for your kind words on a certain topic, Flat. ;) :angel:

And now for the IMO bit. *chuckle*

Since I introduced the mod that requires me to eat and drink in Skyrim I'm even more certain I would like to have a refueling system in Limit Theory. I thoroughly enjoyed the fueling system used in the Elite games of the past. Fueling scoops and all that. I liked the added danger of the possibility of running out of fuel if you didn't think about what you were doing. It was exciting for me, and dangerous. Approaching super hot bodies and watching the temperature reaching critical as you filled you fuel tanks.

It could be added as an option by Josh for all those who enjoy that sort of game mechanic.

Just my opinion for what it's worth. :angel:
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Re: Fuel Part 2

#111
Other.

I'd like to see fuel management, but it should be easy, non-obtrusive, cheap and automated.

E.g., cheap automatic refuelling once docked, and engines that (depending on the type and tech level) eat very little fuel, + fuel scooping, + some sort of secondary/emergency propulsion that allows you to limp to the nearest place where you can find fuel. Mind that plasma engines in theory could use almost anything that could be ionised and thrown away to create thrust.

Fuel should be of greater concern for strategic operations:

- Operating in enemy territory means no refuelling, so you'll have to forage for fuel or spend long time scooping it/mining it;
- The need to keep fleet together to protect against the possible enemy action means you would not want to disperse your units, and it reduces the search area;
- Running supply lines and protecting them is a perfectly valid mechanics, and in the non-strategical gameplay can be used to generate missions for both the player and NPCs, attract privateers and just pirates, etc.

Also, fuel should be of some concern when exploring, because there'll be no cheap and easy refuelling in uncharted systems. Otherwise exploration will be a bit like playing Space Engine - just flying around looking at things, no challenge at all.

This brings the question of how densely LT universe is populated, how far it goes, etc. I don't think it should be limitless - it'd be impossible to simulate all the interactions between all the NPCs, and generating new systems as you discover them is basically the same as making stuff up as you go along. LT universe limited to a galaxy / a group of galaxies is still insanely big, even if you do mini-galaxies several thousands of stars each. And then there should be some big and established civilisations, a frontier of exploration and colonisation, and a lot of empty systems in between, all depending on the seed.
Survivor of the Josh Parnell Blackout of 2015.
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Re: Fuel Part 2

#112
necrooo \o/

we could use a variation on the system stardrive 2 uses for fuel:
ships have limited on-board fuel but dont use fuel while in range of a friendly supply station or planet.

as we want fuel to be its own industry we cant just magically keep ships from using fuel while in range, so i have a couple of thoughts on the whole complex:

first: everything requires fuel, all the time, in varying amounts.
to keep your patrols flying, you have to supply them with fuel.
that fuel can either come from internal tanks aboard the ship/station.

or from a friendly ship/station with a remote supply module.
the RSM transfers fuel to connected ships from the fuel bay of the supplying ship
(and maybe getting handed through multiple RSM's along the way)

im personally a bit split between those two possibilities:
  1. the RSM straight up refills the fuel tanks of connected vessels, greatly simplifies the whole fuel handling. remote supplied ships never have to dock anywhere
  2. the RSM removes the fuel requirements on the supplied ship and directly uses up the fuel of the supply ship instead. ships need to dock to refuel when they got out of supply range for some time
both variations have pros and cons, i personally prefer variation B because it requires long range exploration ships to actually return to base occasionally and not just within 2 jumps of some friendly station.

another point where we have multiple options is how one connects to an RSM
we either
  1. just have to be in range of the RSM to connect
  2. have to get in close proximity of the RSM to connect and then can use the full range of the RSM
option A is the simple option again here, but gives for less interesting interactions, as the only thing necessary is to be in some general area to get fuel.

with an explicit binding procedure theres a clear hierarchy of fuel flow (and thus predictability of where the fuel gets actually used up)
explicit connections also enable fuel supply range to be a limiting factor for drone usage, when not every ship with an RSM can assist the drone tender with supporting its drones.
in that avenue RSM's could have a limit on how many connections they can keep up at once, with the amount of connections being inversely proportional to the range of the RSM.

so a drone tender RSM would have pretty short range but could keep many drones running at once or a large resupply station could keep a single ship running across half the galaxy.

connection range could be a function of both ends of the RSM connection
maybe like
2*(A*B)/(A+B)
which gives A range for A=B and otherwise converges towards 2B for B<<A
which gives advantages for upgrading both ends of a connection but doesnt overly increase the range for just upgrading one end.
so a larger supply station gives larger supply radius, but still limied by the smaller ship



The system would remove the hassle/headache of having to explicitly care for every single ship to refuel when in general usage in friendly territory but preserves the strategic and economic aspects of fuel usage.
An active fleet uses a lot of fuel and has to be supplied.
Either by a big remote supply station or (if out of range or not enough capacities) by tankers going back and forth.

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