<TGS> A clone cost would be good. That could scale upwards if you are dying too frequently.

* Zantai has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)

<ThymineC> It'd be good but not sufficient

<TGS> Eh? How do you figure?

<ThymineC> Firstly, would it be possible to ever not be able to afford a clone and die permanently?

<ThymineC> Or would you always be able to afford a clone?

<TGS> Well if you adopted the EVE concept you could start applying penalties to having a clone that isn't high enough quality. IE losing skills.

<ThymineC> But you could always afford one?

<ThymineC> Like a clone grade alpha in EVE, which is free

<TGS> Well I'd say yes. Though that could be an option in the starting 'options' of the game. Whether or not you have a free very low-quality clone if you don't have another.

<TGS> IE enabling a permadeath situation

<TGS> If you don't have a clone.

<ThymineC> Okay, so let's go with one at a time then

<ThymineC> Let's assume you can always afford a clone

<ThymineC> Should the player be treated the same as NPCs?

<TGS> In what context?

<ThymineC> Just in general

<TGS> Yes.

<ThymineC> But here, in the context of death mechanics

<ThymineC> Should death mechanics apply to NPCs as they do to players?

<TGS> But as Josh outlined, there are two types of 'npc's'

<TGS> They can, but they don't have to. I'd say this is one of those things that probably doesn't need to be conveyed to the player.

<TGS> Except maybe within the context of their own subordinates.

<ThymineC> So you would argue in favour of NPC/player asymmetry?

<ThymineC> For death mechanics

<TGS> I would.

<ThymineC> What makes the player so special?

<ThymineC> Why can the player afford clones indefinitely but no other person in the universe can?

<TGS> Who said they can't?

<ThymineC> You said you didn't want to support asymmetry

<ThymineC> *symmetry, rather

<TGS> In the case of death yes.

<ThymineC> Okay, and I'm talking about death mechanics

<TGS> In every other context no.

<TGS> And with death, only because how other NPC's die or manage dying isn't really a concern of the player.

<ThymineC> It matters, though.

<ThymineC> I will ask a series of Yes/no questions

<TGS> I mean... so what if Joe Star comes back or not in the universe because he had a clone.

<ThymineC> Can the player always afford a basic clone?

<TGS> As I said. Would depend on the pregame options set. Which would provide the 'option' for permadeath or not.

<ThymineC> Just pick one.

<ThymineC> For now.

<TGS> I'm not going to be locked into yes or no answers for something that is not black and white.

<ThymineC> It's a yes/no question

<TGS> And I choose not to answer it.

<ThymineC> Either the player will select permadeath at that screen

<ThymineC> Or they will not

<ThymineC> So pick one.

<TGS> Oh right, different question.

<TGS> In my case it would be no. I don't really care for permadeath.

<TGS> But that's just me.

<ThymineC> Okay, so the player can respawn infinitely often?

<ThymineC> They can always afford a basic clone?

<TGS> Well yes. But not quite in that context. But yes.

<ThymineC> Will NPCs be able to use clones as well?

<TGS> As Josh outlined the "player" npc's yes. The worker npc's no.

<TGS> (But then again you can say they aren't alive)

<ThymineC> Yes, assume "NPC" = "player-like NPC" from now on

<TGS> Then yes.

<ThymineC> Okay, can NPCs buy clones indefinitely, like the player?

<TGS> Hmm that's hard to answer as there isn't really a context. But I'd lean towards yes.

<ThymineC> Okay, so basically you can't truly kill any NPC ever?

<ThymineC> No matter how many times you try to kill an NPC, they will never permanently stay dead?

<TGS> Sure why not.

<ThymineC> Because that doesn't sound fun from a gamist perspective.

<ThymineC> That I won't be able to truly kill any NPC.

<TGS> Why are you even thinking about that?

<TGS> Why do you have to make that connection?

<TGS> Omfg *I* can't die... so that means because NPC's are the same as me... they cannot die either?

<TGS> Omfg I can't kill npc's???

<TGS> Yeah I don't make that leap

<TGS> Nor would I think most people would.

<ThymineC> Well that's an implication of your proposed mechanics.

<ThymineC> That's exactly what happens if we propose your mechanic.

<TGS> Of course it is. But this is what I would call "thinking too much about it"

<ThymineC> No.

<ThymineC> This is called pointing out the flaws in a proposed mechanic.

<TGS> How is it a flaw if it is only uncovered when you think about things that you don't need to think about?

<ThymineC> Why would players not think about it?

<ThymineC> As the players played they'd find they could never kill NPCs permanently

<TGS> Same reason most players don't try to unravel the mysteries of the mechanics of any game they're playing. "Why does this happen?"

<ThymineC> They'd find they were killing the same NPCs over and over again

<TGS> It's an infinite universe... why would they need to be killing the same npc's over and over again?

<TGS> Why would they ever need to encounter that npc again?

<ThymineC> Because both the player and other NPC may have invested assets or capital into a small set of systems

<TGS> The 'death' of that NPC shouldn't be a factor that comes up in the minds of the player. Unless the very random variable odds have that player encounter the same npc again.

<ThymineC> What if both the player and the NPC are rival CEOs with HQs based in nearby systems?

<TGS> Ah see that's another issue entirely.

<ThymineC> Why?

<TGS> Because even if you kill the npc permanently. The assets owned by the CEO wouldn't disappear. They'd probably go to the next in line.

<TGS> So the fact of said NPC having assets/position/whatever is irrelevant to his/her death.

<TGS> So back to the issue of their death.

<TGS> Again I propose that this is a very large universe.

<ThymineC> But they wouldn't go to the next in line

<ThymineC> Because the CEO is still alive

<TGS> Yes you might encounter an npc you killed a year ago.

<TGS> So?

<TGS> Why is the player even thinking about that?

<ThymineC> Because it's frustrating

<TGS> Why is the player worrying about the particular npc controlling x corporation?

<TGS> Yeah... to YOU

<TGS> Someone who clearly overthinks things.

<ThymineC> No, in general

<ThymineC> Think about it

<ThymineC> If you and many other NPCs frequented a system

<TGS> No I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't think about the specific npc's they kill.

<ThymineC> And you killed a bunch of NPCs over and over and over again and they kept coming back

<ThymineC> You would find that annoying

<TGS> Yes... I agree. If you think about it in the context that you killed them and they instantly appear in the exact same place you killed them.

<TGS> But they wouldn't.

<ThymineC> But why not?

<TGS> In fact ideally you should never encounter them again because they shouldn't 'reappear' anywhere near you. The miracle of the clone system would be that they turn up where their clone is. Which ideally would be somewhere far away... safe.

<ThymineC> They wouldn't instantly re-appear, but they'd have clone contracts with stations that are potentially close by

<TGS> Not right near where they died. That's just silly.

<TGS> Why?

<TGS> Just because you do that doesn't mean they have to.

<ThymineC> Why is that silly?

<ThymineC> If my HQ are in system X

<ThymineC> my clones are likely going to be near to X

<TGS> Let me put it this way.

<ThymineC> and wars I fight are likely to be near to X

<TGS> Is every 'npc' going to exist in the universe as a killable ship?

<TGS> Or are there going to be some npc's that stay in stations

<TGS> Some that you never see because they're too busy doing their job.

<TGS> The point I'm getting at. Is that the death of the NPC's should not be the concern of the player.

<ThymineC> Player-like NPCs are likely going to be flying around in ships

<TGS> If you are intentionally making that connection... you're really just giving yourself a headache for no reason.

<TGS> Why?

<TGS> Why not have the logic "Okay... I just died flying out there... maybe I'll take a breather and just stay in the office for awhile"

<ThymineC> Would the player do that?

<TGS> So unless you write down the name of every npc you kill... and cross reference that with every npc you encounter...

* TGS facepalms

<ThymineC> Not really, you'd just notice the same names cropping up and over and over

<ThymineC> It would be annoying as hell

<TGS> Did you seriously just ask me if the player would do it?

<ThymineC> Yes

<ThymineC> It'll be problematic, as I explain here viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2506&start=45#p39394

<TGS> Yes... cause we need to make the npc's and the players have the same thought process. OR IMMERSION BROKEN lol.

<TGS> Come on mate lol

<ThymineC> And my proposal resolves the issue anyway

<TGS> I'm not going to read another one of your massive threads.

<TGS> Sorry.

<TGS> Not interested.

<ThymineC> How old are you by the way?

<TGS> You tried to find flaws in my proposed logic. You failed.

<ThymineC> No, you just don't recognise them.

<ThymineC> We could hold a poll, if you like.

<TGS> No, I don't. For good reason.

<TGS> What would that solve?

<TGS> Or are you trying to prove to me that you are somehow right?

<TGS> Because I already know how that will go.

<TGS> You will construct it in a way that makes your position appear much more valid and likely than it would in reality.

<TGS> I can easily explain this by comparing it to Freelancer.

<TGS> I wouldn't know *ANYONE* who remembers the name of every named NPC they encounter.

<Thor446> http://justgetflux.com/

<TGS> Then freak out if they see it again.

<TGS> And they are bound to see it again.

<TGS> Because there simply aren't an infinite number of names with which to generate.

<TGS> Point is, you are overthinking it. It doesn't have to be a pure black and white issue. This is why I am in favor of asymmetry in this case.

<TGS> Because put simply, the player shouldn't be thinking that hard about how the npc's die.

<TGS> If the player IS thinking that hard about how the npc's die and how they return... then that's a problem for that person to deal with. Not the game.

<TGS> Personally the player and npcs will never be truly the same in a similar vein to this. NPC's can sit in stations and as far as the player is concerned be sitting at a desk doing desk work.

<TGS> The player can't do that.

<TGS> Well... there wouldn't be any point for the player to do that.

<ThymineC> viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2687

<ThymineC> You can cast the "Yes" vote if you like

<ThymineC> Balance it at 1-1 to make it fair

* TGS rolls his eyes

<TGS> Seriously?

<ThymineC> What?

<TGS> How did I know you were going to do that.

<ThymineC> Seriously what?

<ThymineC> Because I said I would?

<TGS> [09:08:40] <+ThymineC> We could hold a poll, if you like.

<TGS> Pretty sure you asked if I would like you to.

<ThymineC> > <TGS> Or are you trying to prove to me that you are somehow right?

<TGS> And I made it clear I didn't.

<TGS> Yet you did it anyway.

<ThymineC> Yes, pretty much this.

<ThymineC> Well, I meant to imply

<ThymineC> "I'm going to post a poll"

<TGS> Except that you aren't. Because this is purely a matter of perspective. And you my friend clearly overthink things. And you are going to imply that others do as well, in fact you're probably reaching out for others to do the same thing.

<TGS> Ah just read the thread and as I suspected you constructed it in a way to make your 'perspective' far more likely than it needs to be.

<ThymineC> Actually, I modified it

<ThymineC> Another characteristic is that it makes it straightforward to implement perma-respawn for the player and maintain player-NPC symmetry.

<ThymineC> So it seems pretty fair now

<ThymineC> I need to go to sleep soon as I've got to be up for work tomorrow

<ThymineC> But I'll be interested to see how the poll goes