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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#16
I mentioned it before, but will again here anyway. I like the current controls now, but if you could then have another key to hold (or toggle) which would allow you to look around and shoot in any direction, while still travelling the same direction when you pressed said button it would be so helpful. Other ships can do it (shoot in a different direction than you face), why can't we D: I think ALT would be good for this, but if it's customizable I guess anyone can go for whatever they want.
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#17
JoshParnell wrote:But these two camps are so easily unified by one or two lines of code that there's really not any excuse to exclude one or the other :)

Let's just include both!
I kinda figured you would say that If I presented it like that. =)

One has the aim point directly going to the destination heading (and the ship generates torque for getting there),
the other "leads" the ship by continually providing a new destination heading (and the ship generates torque for getting there).

All the tricky parts are already working, leaves only "dumb" mouselook, directly translating a GetPosition into a camera angle. I don't expect that to be a problem. =)
Well, you would have to fix the crosshairs to the screen center because you would be "aiming with your eyes". And the SHIFT and/or SPACE keys to release the pointer for HUD function access. Fiddly bits.


The only thing that would get "interesting" is how the camera views your own ship while rotated every which way.
In 1st person you'd have zero feedback on your view direction relative to the ship's nose.
In 3rd person in a capital ship, the camera location would probably have to rotate around the ship, too, to avoid having to look through the ship.
But that will require a solution anyway because you cannot fix the view forward - as is very noticeable with capital ships.
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#18
Might I suggest that there are 3 distinct functions here, and how I personally would like to see them best implemented.

1) Mouse look. As the pilot I want to be able to turn my head, or my view in any direction. Click on targets, etc. Thats like the HUD in my helmet for example.

2) Turret aiming. This is the future, I would expect that any turret weapons would lock onto and attempt (within their arc of fire) to track the current target I have selected. Anything else just seems WW2 era! No interaction other than target aquisition should be necessary. I want to pilot a ship, not play turret gunner at the same time.

3) Steering. Should be totally independant of the 2 above controls. Joystick or Keyboard operations control yaw, roll and pitch.


This can then leave the physics of the flying experience as a seperate topic.
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#19
Gomisan wrote: 2) Turret aiming. This is the future, I would expect that any turret weapons would lock onto and attempt (within their arc of fire) to track the current target I have selected. Anything else just seems WW2 era! No interaction other than target aquisition should be necessary. I want to pilot a ship, not play turret gunner at the same time.
Everyone is certainly different, as I want to do the firing of the turrets myself. If it was automated when locked on I would find that a little boring. Each to their own though ofcourse!
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#20
You wouldn't even be able to fire them all yourself if (like on a capital ship) some fire to the left and others to the right.
Some of the guns would constantly be unable to bear under manual control.

However, if you put the point defense guns "on auto", you could manually control the ship's main armament - in the arc where they can fire.

Gomisan wrote:3) Steering. Should be totally independant of the 2 above controls. Joystick or Keyboard operations control yaw, roll and pitch.
Once mouselook is de-coupled from the fixed-forward view, that would be as simple as having a Fly This Way key. (I'm christening the feature Gazz FTW!)

You hold down FTW, mouselook (drag) into a new direction, and release... the ship starts turning towards that new heading while you either control the gunnery or deal with the fleet's maneuvers. Takes less than a second to accurately program a new course.

A click without dragging the mouse to a new heading gets you back to normal aim-following control.

Since that would amount to a key that does nothing but stop the updating of the ship's aim point when "locked", it's a very safe bet that we'll get it. =)


It's not the Newtonian physics that you asked for but it's a super quick way of having the ship fly / turn towards one direction while you look around, shoot, or use the fleet controls.
While in the fleet control (or other?) windows, holding that key could temporarily clear those windows and let you assign a new instant-course... and then you release the key and continue what you were doing.
Unlike every other game I know you would be able to have tactical fleet control while having the ability to order a course change literally on a moment's notice! Without even interrupting your "real" job as fleet admiral!

A game that (finally!) gets "flying capital ships" right? Mind-boggling!



If you had more than one controller, say joystick + mouse, you could control course and view separately - but there are very few people who can actually handle this in 3D and realtime. =)
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#21
Just want to reiterate that Cap ships will need a way to shoot outside the frontal view cone. Up through Destroyers I managed to fight with things they way they are (although if I hadn't had a fleet with me, I probably would have had a lot more problems), but now that I have a Frigate, the thing is just impossible to fight with that limitation.

My solution to this is to make my cap ships all AI controlled (since they can shoot in any arc) and limit myself to flying fighters or bombers (or corvettes).
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#23
I can see this discussion starting to broaden :)

In my 'perfect universe' (tm), and I acknowledge I may not be the majority here, turret weapons would be a more expensive option, and fixed weapons would be cheaper and more common. The more arc a turret wepon has would also impact cost. As this would amount to more complex mechanics and control systems.

So dog fighting would really be about ship control, and aquistion of a target would allow some turret weapons to provide additional firepower.

As you moved up to capital ships of course turreted weapons become the norm, as teh ship isnt designed to dogfight. In this case you may have the ability to assign groupings to weapons, and then assign targets to weapon groups. Or give them different roles.

So you may preconfure your fast and accurate close range wepoans as a group, and your long range as another.

Then in battle you would set group 1 to 'auto defense' mode so it could take out fighters and incoming missiles, while you manually acquired targets for Group 2.

but here I am digressing on my own forum topic!!
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#24
JoshParnell wrote:Friday, May 3, 2013

The latter part is solved: the new flight system makes it wayyy better to pilot a big ship, and allows you to target and fire upon enemies in any direction with equal ease. But piloting a fighter still doesn't feel quite right.

All I really need to do is keep playing with the math for long enough, and I'm sure I'll get it to work out eventually. I'm excited about this improvement, though, as it's really a huge boost to the enjoyability of flying large ships! :D I actually might try flying something larger than a fighter now!
You cannot imagine how long I've been waiting for a control scheme like that! (Since Frontier came out, so about since you were in diapers! How time flies... =)


Possible solutions for the last fiddly bit:
  • Dump this problem into the player's lap.
    In the control config, have a slider for the size of ships for which the view is locked to the frontal arc like before.

    A ship would "apply" when the slider value is higher than it's greatest dimension in any direction.

    Of course, this screen would list the sizes of your current ship and somehow tell the player which of it's 3 dimensions are now above or below the slider value.

    The ship's name turns from white to blue when the ship applies for this.
    The 3 dimensions are also listed and individually turn to blue when the the slider passes "their" value.
    That should explain the system without words.
  • Have 2 "Mouse sensitivity" settings.
    One sensitivity for the triangle cursor in "menu mode", which also if you hold down the Free Mouse hotkey.
    Another for view / steering.

    In flight, the player can reduce the mouse speed and aim more accurately, which would be a nice bonus for the Club of Old Dodderers, but it doesn't make the "management" part of the game aggravating from having a sluggish mouse pointer.
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#25
Well, seems like it was a must-have :) Is this not the way it is in the X series, though? (I have never actually owned a cap ship in X, so I just assumed that the control scheme was something like this).

As for the last part, I don't think we're even going to need an "option," as I think I've got it worked out now to where it feels good when piloting any type of ship! The fighter is a little bit noticeably looser, but it actually feels a bit cooler IMO - you get a better sense of the maneuvers that you're doing. Anyway, I'll just have to wait for feedback from the second round of LTP tests.

The only control we should need is look sensitivity. With high sensitivity, even in a fighter, you will be able to look around so rapidly that the fighter orientation will lag behind, but that's your choice, and you'll be able to aim super quickly. Likewise, you can set a relatively low sensitivity to achieve the same type of flight that you're used to in fighters, but still maintain control of a large ship.

About to implement free mouse mode and, after that, battle time..I am very excited to have some "fair" battles for once with my Destroyer! :D
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#26
JoshParnell wrote:Well, seems like it was a must-have :) Is this not the way it is in the X series, though? (I have never actually owned a cap ship in X, so I just assumed that the control scheme was something like this).
Nope. Their engine dates back to the late 90s...
View is a 100% fixed cockpit camera. Not even a little wiggle.

You can switch to turret views while flying but if you manually aim the turret while you are there, this kills the autopilot so your ship becomes a sitting duck with everything hitting it easily.

In fact, I'd be tempted to rub their collective noses in it when I get a hold of the next prototype. Little bit.
Their reasoning for why capital ships will not be fly-able in Rebirth is that flying capital ships isn't fun because the controls must suck.
Of course I have suggested the same to them but that's not the same as being able to show that it works.
One control to rule them all! =) (Gawd, why can't developers have more imagination???)


What about this?
With capital ships being properly sluggish (even more so than in the 1st proto), it's silly to "hold" an aim long enough for the ship to come around to this angle.
I'd like to tell it the new heading and continue to fight the ship.
Gazz wrote:Once mouselook is de-coupled from the fixed-forward view, that would be as simple as having a Fly This Way key. (I'm christening the feature Gazz FTW!)

You hold down FTW, mouselook (drag) into a new direction, and release... the ship starts turning towards that new heading while you either continue to control the gunnery or deal with the fleet's maneuvers. Takes less than a second to accurately program a new course.
Holding down the key would also temporarily blank out open windows so you could "set a new course" without noticeably interrupting what you are doing on the tactical interface / turret view / assets window, etc...

A click without dragging the mouse to a new heading gets you back to normal aim-following control.

Since that would amount to a single key that does nothing but stop the updating of the ship's aim point when "locked", I give us high chances of getting it. =)
You could do this in I-War. Fly one way but rotate the ship (fixed-forward guns...) another way.
In LT you have turrets so it's even a bit less awkward because only the view is independent of the ship's heading.
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#27
PS: Just one of those "obvious" things...

Does the de-coupled view cover the turning keys Q/E?

If the ship slowly turns to a new heading, it should bank to the new rotation at the same time.

This would seamlessly carry over to the FTW key... because it's the same thing.


I could set a new course including the rotation necessary to bring the main guns to bear on a new target. Maneuvering a capital ship fo' reals!
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#28
Gazz wrote:In fact, I'd be tempted to rub their collective noses in it when I get a hold of the next prototype. Little bit.
Their reasoning for why capital ships will not be fly-able in Rebirth is that flying capital ships isn't fun because the controls must suck.
Of course I have suggested the same to them but that's not the same as being able to show that it works.
One control to rule them all! =) (Gawd, why can't developers have more imagination???)
:shock: Great argument on their part!

Yes, I think the Gazz FTW feature will come sooner or later :) Sounds easy.

And yes, the new decoupling includes roll, so your view can be at whatever roll you like and the ship will be adjusting appropriately in the mean time.

Working well so far!!
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#30
JoshParnell wrote: And yes, the new decoupling includes roll, so your view can be at whatever roll you like and the ship will be adjusting appropriately in the mean time.
That reminds me while we're on the subject, I want to officially request a 'roll re-orient' button. Most of the descent games had it, and you press it, and completely straightens you back out.

( Yes, I'm OCD, and since everything is pretty much on the same plane, I'd like to reset my orientation appropriately )
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