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Re: General Outline of Alpha and Beta Testing

#46
CSE wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:26 am
Black--Snow wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:30 am
Err issue again is the "I paid extra for x, now you're giving it away to people who never paid for it". Also because all backers includes levels cheaper than the game would actually be.
Disclaimer: I won’t be a beta tester, as I won’t have the time to make a meaningful contribution. So I am not trying to get reward beyond my tier ;)

Actually, this issue is a non issue: the backers have a right to have the beta, they do not have a right that nobody else does. To have this right, the beta should be « exclusive »; promised was only a « closed beta », therefore making it publicly available to download would not be fair.
So Josh is 200% free to involve whomever he wants in the beta, backer or not, as long as it is not a free for all download link publicly publicized !
Err no. The backers that backed lower than beta don't actually have any claim to it. Josh can of course give whoever he wants beta, legally no one can do anything. It does undermine his credibility completely though.

You can't argue semantics when it comes to public opinion.
I am literally and wholly in love with myself.
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Re: General Outline of Alpha and Beta Testing

#47
Black--Snow wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:30 am
Miklos wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:52 am
Honestly, with the years of delay, perhaps make beta available to all backers that are active on the forums regardless of backing levels - more eyes can't hurt and I really hope that LT will be what we all anticipate and that Josh & Co. get the recognition (outside of the forums) that they deserve and also a financial windfall.

Logic dictates that people who are serious about beta testing should have access and there should be an awesome reporting system in place (snapshot the current game so devs and other testers can resume the game, screenshots, description field, and a bug ID link) so it is easy to track said bugs, have a discussion thread per bug, merge bugs etc. and again, other testers can verify the issues to avoid the holy trinity using their time on non-bugs :)
Err issue again is the "I paid extra for x, now you're giving it away to people who never paid for it". Also because all backers includes levels cheaper than the game would actually be.

I mean, a $50 pledge was for beta access. That's not insubstantial, and a long wait time certainly doesn't justify a bump in kickstarter tiers. I pledged $20 for Dysis and that project was never even finished. By your metric I should be entitled to recompense.

My point is that kickstarter is a gamble in the first place and feeling entitled to beta because there was a wait is a silly justification. No offense intended to you by this post, I don't mean to come across as hostile or anything. :)
Wait what - where do I even remotely come off as feeling entitled to anything? I think you misread what I wrote and my intention.

I want the best beta testers to test the game - couldn't care less what level people backed or didn't back (and I backed) the game - I said from the start I was backing Josh rather than a game, the game is a bonus. Also what people paid for is a non-issue as people who paid for beta access still get their beta access, if people who didn't pay for it also get it, what does it matter to them or are they so insecure people they can't accept the best possible outcome for LT?

During this journey that LT has been, so far, I really want Josh to get recognition and secure himself financially, else I would personally feel bad that Josh ended up going through so rough times on this journey.
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Re: General Outline of Alpha and Beta Testing

#48
Black--Snow wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:52 am
CSE wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:26 am
Black--Snow wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:30 am
Err issue again is the "I paid extra for x, now you're giving it away to people who never paid for it". Also because all backers includes levels cheaper than the game would actually be.
Disclaimer: I won’t be a beta tester, as I won’t have the time to make a meaningful contribution. So I am not trying to get reward beyond my tier ;)

Actually, this issue is a non issue: the backers have a right to have the beta, they do not have a right that nobody else does. To have this right, the beta should be « exclusive »; promised was only a « closed beta », therefore making it publicly available to download would not be fair.
So Josh is 200% free to involve whomever he wants in the beta, backer or not, as long as it is not a free for all download link publicly publicized !
Err no. The backers that backed lower than beta don't actually have any claim to it. Josh can of course give whoever he wants beta, legally no one can do anything. It does undermine his credibility completely though.

You can't argue semantics when it comes to public opinion.
I doubt your personal opinion constitutes public opinion on the matter ;) Only thing that matters is that people get what they paid for, not what other people got extra.
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Re: General Outline of Alpha and Beta Testing

#49
There's been a lot of speculation about what people will or will not think, apparently we have a bunch of mind readers here :p

Josh could simply ask if they have any objections to him giving beta to a few individuals who have been active on the forums but weren't around for the Kickstarter or pledged below the beta level. The game has been in development for over 5 years now and looking at the comments on the latest updates, many people are pleasantly surprised its still in development at all.

I would love access to the beta in exchange for my non monetary contributions, but if the backers strongly object, I would be able to wait. And besides, asking about objections before acting only raises your credibility and perception of integrity, regardless of what they say one way or the other.
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Re: General Outline of Alpha and Beta Testing

#50
I personally don't see a problem with letting the more active forum members here have access to the beta. Limit Theory is over due, a release date could in theory still be two or more years out. I don't see the point in denying game access to anyone who has stuck with Josh through think and thin, worst of times, and best of times. We're a fairly tight knit community and I think it's clear at this point that we all want the best for Limit Theory.

In the end, it's all up to Josh to decide. So there's really no point in us arguing points on this subject since they are just matters of personal opinion.

I have acquired a pledge through my limited work here in a sense. Others have done far more than I, and are still without pledges. This doesn't seem right to me. I'll test the beta to the best of my abilities and may even start a thread specifically for answering questions about the beta when the time comes because I really want everyone to experience LT, even if they don't have beta access.
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Re: General Outline of Alpha and Beta Testing

#51
What was very cool about when Elite Dangerous was in Alpha and Beta was that there was no rules against streaming or making videos. Some really good streamers did some very nice videos and it let people who hadn't backed to that level get a look at the game. I'd love to see LT do the same. Let folks make videos and spread the word. Can't see any reasons not to and I know people made some videos of the prototype when it was released. For me only the folk who backed at the right level should get access that's kind of the whole point about ponying up the extra money.
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Re: General Outline of Alpha and Beta Testing

#52
First a caveat:
I did not pledge, I have no skin in this game financially. I have lurked here for a really long time, but I feel zero entitlement to any pre-release content or experiences.

Beta access being restricted to KS backers made sense when the original schedule was being adhered to. The active community was bigger, there was palpable buzz about the game on the forums, the end of each month was a treasure trove of moving eye candy and daily dev logs pointed toward rapid, concrete progress. Fast forward 2-3 years. Due to well known reasons, development stalled and release, though much nearer, is still a nebulous someday. I would argue that poignant interest in Beta at this point has waned somewhat for all but the most ardent KS backers.* I would also argue that the overall Beta feedback from those same backers would differ qualitatively 3 years ago vs. now. Time has passed, competing or differing interests have been introduced, 3 years ago someone was a rabid space exploration fiend--now they just want to play CoD, kids happened, life happened.
I guess I'm just saying in the better interest of LT at this point, opening up Beta to a few select individuals outside of KS backers makes sense. There are definitely non-backer members here who are more than capable of giving well thought out, useful observations and suggestions. Honestly, they've earned the right for Beta consideration for just that: consistently giving thoughtful, useful observations and suggestions throughout this game's development...for years now...even when the lights went out and everything was in doubt.

Besides...it's probably what, a dozen, maybe two dozen people?

*Yeah, it's a supposition. But the passionate early-adopters ardor will have cooled 5-6 years later...
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things."
-Col. Lewis B. Puller, USMC
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Re: General Outline of Alpha and Beta Testing

#53
If you were to take the top posters from the first page, and were to make the argument that these people should get beta access, well I think these are fitting. Top LT Posters

Cornflakes
Talvieno - Our CM
Victor - Who certainly has beta access
Dinosawer
DWMagus - Previous moderator
Flatfingers
Josh - Who gets access to the alpha before anyone else :P
Thy- Who got banned
Silverware
Lum
Gazz - Another moderator
Scytale
BFett - I have beta access so no need to give me another copy
HowSerendipitous
Katorone - Made the original LT wiki
Idunno
Hyperion
Detritus
Charley_Deallus
Grumblesaur - Another moderator
Cha0zz
Zanteogo
IronDuke
Just_Ice_au - Another moderator
Katawa - Someone who has left the forums for quite some time now.


So, looking at this, I'd say there are 15 top posters who I believe have earned beta.
Last edited by BFett on Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: General Outline of Alpha and Beta Testing

#54
I will buy-in for myself and several other people on the first day that Limit Theory is available to the general public. People shouldn't hold anything against Josh if he decides to go to early access: there may be a pretty convincing business case here because it's been more than 5 years since the KS-phase, there are more people on the team, and there is an office space to pay for. If the game is good enough to get strong favorable reviews, going early access is a benefit to the community because Josh will have more resources to enhance Limit Theory or make another game.

If Josh decides to stick with no early access, then I will continue to wait patiently.
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Re: General Outline of Alpha and Beta Testing

#55
Ashenraynor wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:28 pm
I will buy-in for myself and several other people on the first day that Limit Theory is available to the general public. People shouldn't hold anything against Josh if he decides to go to early access: there may be a pretty convincing business case here because it's been more than 5 years since the KS-phase, there are more people on the team, and there is an office space to pay for. If the game is good enough to get strong favorable reviews, going early access is a benefit to the community because Josh will have more resources to enhance Limit Theory or make another game.

If Josh decides to stick with no early access, then I will continue to wait patiently.
I disagree. This completely ignores the idea behind kickstarter: The money is supposed to fund development.

Plus, I think it's also something that Josh would be completely adverse to. That would mean releasing an unfinished product, which is not in line with Josh's personality.
I am literally and wholly in love with myself.
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Re: General Outline of Alpha and Beta Testing

#56
Philip Coutts wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:31 pm
What was very cool about when Elite Dangerous was in Alpha and Beta was that there was no rules against streaming or making videos. Some really good streamers did some very nice videos and it let people who hadn't backed to that level get a look at the game. I'd love to see LT do the same. Let folks make videos and spread the word. Can't see any reasons not to and I know people made some videos of the prototype when it was released. For me only the folk who backed at the right level should get access that's kind of the whole point about ponying up the extra money.
i dont see a reason why it should be differnt for the beta than it was for the Prototype back in '13

Black--Snow wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:12 am
I disagree. This completely ignores the idea behind kickstarter: The money is supposed to fund development.
and it will have for over 5 years. where didnt it do that?
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Re: General Outline of Alpha and Beta Testing

#59
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:49 am
Black--Snow wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:12 am
I disagree. This completely ignores the idea behind kickstarter: The money is supposed to fund development.
and it will have for over 5 years. where didnt it do that?
Ideally it funds the whole development up until release. Releasing an unfinished product because you can't manage your money or just don't have enough is a touchy subject. Early access also gets a lot more scrutiny, essentially LT will be seen as a completed game by most if released to EA on Steam.
And really, shouldn't it be? If you're selling your game while it's not 'finished', you should be open to people saying "Dude, this is frakking shit because x,y,z" and not be able to use the catch all "Not representative of final gameplay" or less elegantly put "It's early access mate!".

No, I don't think EA suits LT at all, lest it gets lost in the mass of shitty, never complete games.
I am literally and wholly in love with myself.
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Re: General Outline of Alpha and Beta Testing

#60
Black--Snow wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:20 pm
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:49 am
Black--Snow wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:12 am
I disagree. This completely ignores the idea behind kickstarter: The money is supposed to fund development.
and it will have for over 5 years. where didnt it do that?
Ideally it funds the whole development up until release. Releasing an unfinished product because you can't manage your money or just don't have enough is a touchy subject. Early access also gets a lot more scrutiny, essentially LT will be seen as a completed game by most if released to EA on Steam.
And really, shouldn't it be? If you're selling your game while it's not 'finished', you should be open to people saying "Dude, this is frakking shit because x,y,z" and not be able to use the catch all "Not representative of final gameplay" or less elegantly put "It's early access mate!".

No, I don't think EA suits LT at all, lest it gets lost in the mass of shitty, never complete games.
Black--Snow wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:20 pm
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:49 am
Black--Snow wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:12 am
I disagree. This completely ignores the idea behind kickstarter: The money is supposed to fund development.
and it will have for over 5 years. where didnt it do that?
Ideally it funds the whole development up until release. Releasing an unfinished product because you can't manage your money or just don't have enough is a touchy subject. Early access also gets a lot more scrutiny, essentially LT will be seen as a completed game by most if released to EA on Steam.
And really, shouldn't it be? If you're selling your game while it's not 'finished', you should be open to people saying "Dude, this is frakking shit because x,y,z" and not be able to use the catch all "Not representative of final gameplay" or less elegantly put "It's early access mate!".

No, I don't think EA suits LT at all, lest it gets lost in the mass of shitty, never complete games.
Ideally, the game would have been released on time. $40,000/year (5 years in development, $200K backing) isn't a lot to play with when you have labor/overhead costs and the business is fully supporting you. I don't know LT's financial situation (and I don't care); but if early access gets the game completed, then I'll be happy to buy.

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