The General Unhappiness Thread

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Re: The General Unhappiness Thread

Postby Damocles » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:43 pm

A (cheap) trick to enable a large simulation without impacting the real-time performance would be to
cache the calculation-orders, and execute them as a batch process in intervals.
For example, every time the user docks at a station or changes the system, or is in some menu-transition.

Here the simulator then executes all the out of system events. This will take some toll on the CPU, but does not bother as much
as then done during the flight/action.
If the player spends too much time in realtime flight, the simulation halts meanwhile. Its not too noticeable in the end, if "fast travel" is assumed
to speed up time.
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Re: The General Unhappiness Thread

Postby Ringu » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:46 pm

masseffect7 wrote:The question I have is whether the original vision of LT is even possible to create right now. When you have a limitless universe combined with an AI that can essentially do everything that the human player does, I can see how that would lead to issues.

You're really talking about clustering and Level of Detail faking - you clearly can't 100% simulate the universe, so you have to decide which things must be simulated and which things can be re-calculated and re-set at certain important points.

This is pretty much the accepted solution, and can work well, although you can optimise it dramatically by only executing a calculation to determine the state of the sector/system/entity rather than a full-blown simulation.
The further away a sector/system/entity or the fewer connections the player has to them or the time since last check, could determine the scale of the range of possible outcomes and even which calculations are needed - if the system's star went nova then no more calculations need be done for that system, for example. :-p
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Re: The General Unhappiness Thread

Postby kaeroku » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:07 pm

masseffect7 wrote:The question I have is whether the original vision of LT is even possible to create right now. When you have a limitless universe combined with an AI that can essentially do everything that the human player does, I can see how that would lead to issues. <snip>

Simulating 25 different economies and calculating how the different individuals and factions would react to changes would be a very difficult problem to deal with, and that's without taking into account how AI actions in systems without trading posts affect economies <snip>


This should be easily resolvable via the same method Minecraft and other, similar games use: load "chunks" of universe, and de-load them as you leave. Keep only very small amounts of specific data which is recalculated as you access it.

For instance: you have a trade empire in de-loaded chunks which is supposed to send 10 units of a good to a system near you every so often? Have that somehow hooked into the current system, so the deloaded system doesn't have to process it. Essentially, just because the universe is infinite and procedural does not mean all parts of it need to be functioning at all times, only accurate from the player's perspective.

If you have that same trade empire sending units to another system and you are not in *either* system, have it do the calculations either a) as you load the trade/asset info screen, b) as you putz around in system, the machine code loads in elements like that in priority order, with priority determined by Josh to be what is most likely to be relevant to a player immediately upon entering the system (ie hostiles, then astronomical bodies, then trade info, etc.).

In this way you're not maintaining dozens of simultaneous instances of hard processing. You queue it and do the math as needed. The majority of the values can be set in such a way that for X amount of time out of a system, A, B, C, and D happen (and interact correctly) so when you return the new state is as it would have been had you spent your whole time in-system observing. This is possible with known feats of programming, and is commonly done in other games.

TL;DR: the issue you imagine is not one which I suspect poses the problems Josh currently faces.
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Re: The General Unhappiness Thread

Postby kaeroku » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:39 pm

I admit I'm still a bit concerned. Lots of people seem appeased by the recent post, but it's really nothing until the new promises made are acted on.

The general hype makes me unhappy, as this just feels like another beginning to the same old cycle. I hope I'm wrong but I won't really be happy until such a time as that has been demonstrated.
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Re: The General Unhappiness Thread

Postby Zanteogo » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:20 pm

kaeroku wrote:I admit I'm still a bit concerned. Lots of people seem appeased by the recent post, but it's really nothing until the new promises made are acted on.

The general hype makes me unhappy, as this just feels like another beginning to the same old cycle. I hope I'm wrong but I won't really be happy until such a time as that has been demonstrated.


I'm not appeased, but I also don't want to punish Josh too much for delivering bad news.

As I have said, I'm not happy that the last two years have been 95% sideways development and 5% forward. Unless Josh finds a break through or changes the way he does things, we will be lucky to see LT in the next 10 years. (of course Josh will have run out of money long by then)

I think we should encourage Josh to keep communicating, but at the same time respectful criticism of what he communicates is ok.
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Re: The General Unhappiness Thread

Postby kaeroku » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:28 pm

Zanteogo wrote:As I have said, I'm not happy that the last two years have been 95% sideways development and 5% forward. Unless Josh finds a break through or changes the way he does things, we will be lucky to see LT in the next 10 years. (of course Josh will have run out of money long by then.)


I'm actually fine with this. Perhaps because of my background in project management, but problem solving often takes the majority of time when known solutions don't exist. Someone made the point recently that they wished they saw evidence of Josh actually taking the known solutions (might have been you,) and I fully agree with that too, but I'm encouraged by the description of the iterative process which he's been going through, because despite repeated failure it's certainly not time wasted. (I realize you didn't say it was time wasted, I'm just trying to highlight the value of failures.)

Zanteogo wrote:I think we should encourage Josh to keep communicating, but at the same time respectful criticism of what he communicates is ok.


I think if Josh is able to continue communicating, or at least find a way to get word out through a CM, many of the problems with this project will be resolved.
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Re: The General Unhappiness Thread

Postby Talvieno » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:54 am

kaeroku wrote:I admit I'm still a bit concerned. Lots of people seem appeased by the recent post, but it's really nothing until the new promises made are acted on.

The general hype makes me unhappy, as this just feels like another beginning to the same old cycle. I hope I'm wrong but I won't really be happy until such a time as that has been demonstrated.

I don't see there's much to be hyped about yet, to be honest. And, I, too, hope he acts on his new promises. I also hope he actually takes some time to consider alternative methods of dealing with his code problems.

Time will tell, though. :)
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Re: The General Unhappiness Thread

Postby F4wk35 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:51 am

In my opinion it's a good thing that Josh brought in News (And I guess I'm not even remotely alone with that :ghost: ).

But it'll be a lot more reason to Hype/Celebrate when such news become more regular instead of rare occurences (Of course those news don't have to be as extensive.)

So now it's time to sit down with a smile, drink tea and see how it progresses. :wave:
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Re: The General Unhappiness Thread

Postby cuisinart8 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:42 am

Talvieno wrote:
kaeroku wrote:I admit I'm still a bit concerned. Lots of people seem appeased by the recent post, but it's really nothing until the new promises made are acted on.

The general hype makes me unhappy, as this just feels like another beginning to the same old cycle. I hope I'm wrong but I won't really be happy until such a time as that has been demonstrated.

I don't see there's much to be hyped about yet, to be honest. And, I, too, hope he acts on his new promises. I also hope he actually takes some time to consider alternatives methods of dealing with his code problems.

Time will tell, though. :)

I have similar sentiments. I'm note exactly hyped, but Josh's return has provided me and, it looks like, many others, with a much-needed infusion of hope for the project.
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Re: The General Unhappiness Thread

Postby Grumblesaur » Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:34 am

I feel my break from this play was well rewarded.
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Re: The General Unhappiness Thread

Postby Zanteogo » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:04 am

Well, after 6 days of no new posts in the Unhappiness Thread, Grumblesaur successfully brings the thread back to the top.

You sir, are the master of unhappiness. ;)
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Re: The General Unhappiness Thread

Postby charnode » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:59 am

Zanteogo wrote:Well, after 6 days of no new posts in the Unhappiness Thread, Grumblesaur successfully brings the thread back to the top.

You sir, are the master of unhappiness. ;)



The true General Unhappiness he is.
You cannot not communicate.
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Re: The General Unhappiness Thread

Postby Scytale » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:50 am

yay i found the thread Tal!

(unnecessary necro?)
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