What is generated at "the edge"?

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What is generated at "the edge"?

Postby bkdevil » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:59 pm

I was reading through some of the discussions regarding "late game" overpowered factions, controlled by either the player or the AI. It brought a question to my mind that has probably been discussed on here, but I'm unsure as how I would find the relevant topic.

As I understand it, the universe is generated at a certain size, and is only technically "infinite" because as I travel towards the edge of the created universe, more content is created for me to discover. So my question is, how much new space is generated as I travel towards the edge? Is it created one system at a time in front of me? Several at a time? Hundreds?

I wonder because if I travel in one direction for enough time, shouldn't I eventually come up against the border of a very large empire? Shouldn't I eventually come up against an empire of any size I want if I continue travelling for long enough? However, if the systems are only generated one at a time, then I may only end up seeing a faction big enough to control that single system, or maybe a it and a couple of neighbours. I'm never going to see a 100 star system strong empire generated by my travels.

I was curious about this because my thoughts on the overpowered player faction were initially, "well, in infinite space there is always going to be someone bigger than you", but perhaps that can't be the case.

Thoughts or a point to the relevant thread?
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Re: What is generated at "the edge"?

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:21 pm

if done properly it doesnt exactly matter if systems are generated in batches of 100 or in batches of 1.

(in a simplified version)

a system could have a "contains empire x" tag at creation.
if the placement of that tag is bound to certain volumes/areas in the universe it doesnt matter if you create systems one at a time or in large batches.
as they'd be in the affected volume anyway.

low-fidelity simulation at the edges of the generated space would smooth the edges around any "batch-borders".
as for example if half of the empire gets generated a noticeable amount of time before the other half.
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Re: What is generated at "the edge"?

Postby BFett » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:20 pm

Systems are connected to one another through wormholes. While each system is infinite you can't travel from within one system and reach another one. There is a sphere in which AI will interact. So traveling in a direction long enough will not present additional AI factions
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Re: What is generated at "the edge"?

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:37 pm

Which doesnt matter at all for what he asked...
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Re: What is generated at "the edge"?

Postby 0111narwhalz » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:05 pm

BFett wrote:Systems are connected to one another through wormholes. While each system is infinite you can't travel from within one system and reach another one. There is a sphere in which AI will interact. So traveling in a direction long enough will not present additional AI factions

But jumping through wormholes in a "direction" might.
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Re: What is generated at "the edge"?

Postby bkdevil » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:51 pm

Yes, I was referring to travel from system to system, which would be accomplished through wormholes (or whatever the name will be upon release). And as I understand it, you can continuously travel via wormhole to new systems forever. I would assume this would mean you would run into new factions eventually, and with a mechanic such as what cornflakes suggested, you would run into a faction that had a sphere of influence beyond what had been generated so far based on how far you had traveled.

I suppose not all paths would be infinitely long, as you would have to constantly find wormholes taking you somewhere new and not all systems would have multiple portals, but you could, in theory, travel forever in a winding path outward from your start point.
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Re: What is generated at "the edge"?

Postby Idunno » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:55 pm

I, personally, like to think of Limit Theory's universe generation as a game of minesweeper. The squares are the systems, and every time you visit a new one, everything related to that system is uncovered. :ghost:
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The results of logic, of natural progression? Boring! An expected result? Dull! An obvious next step? Pfui! Where is the fun in that? A dream may soothe, but our nightmares make us run!
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Re: What is generated at "the edge"?

Postby bkdevil » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:56 pm

This also makes me think that you would need to have traveled sufficiently close to the edge of your known universe to have the game generate the proposed "empire tag", which would mean that as long as you hung out in a few systems you wouldn't run the risk of having some thousand star empire invade after it expanded from its home far, far away.
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Re: What is generated at "the edge"?

Postby TGS » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:37 am

Cake. Cake is generated at the edge.
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Re: What is generated at "the edge"?

Postby Victor Tombs » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:46 am

TGS wrote:Cake. Cake is generated at the edge.


If that's the case, TGS, I'm going to spend some time at "the edge"....probably too much time. :D
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Re: What is generated at "the edge"?

Postby BFett » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:55 am

I would imagine that as you travel in the universe systems would be generated two connections out from your current system. So if you are in system A then system B and system C would be generated. The reason why I think this is because I believe there may be trade between systems in LT. If this is the case then it makes sense for these connections to exist. If you want to travel to system B, chances are it is trading with most of the systems that are adjacent to it (through wormhole connections). So, the player is going to see vessels not just from system A and system B but also from system C even though C does not have a wormhole connected to system A.

Here's a quick visual of the connections.

A<->B<->C

Note that there could be other systems which may connect to B.
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Re: What is generated at "the edge"?

Postby Lodis » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:23 am

From what I remember factions have set 'moods' as such, with their leaders being benevolent and/or altruistic/cruel/what have you. These moods influence their tech levels, even so far as several systems away from you, so that as you expand your empire, they have already done the same or have already done so before the game has started!

At least this was one of the ideas as proposed by Josh and/or others. Sorry I can't remember exactly, I joined the very same day as the only person to have ever been banned from these forums (i think he was the only one banned) - that guy spoke well and spoke a lot ad nauseum so that i cannot remember which were josh's ideas and which were his. And yet I'm fairly certain Josh had indicated that yes, should you travel away from your starting position you will find different empires, small or large, covering several systems - whether that makes it into the final game is up to him and the rules of the code of course :D
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Re: What is generated at "the edge"?

Postby Flatfingers » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:35 pm

Victor Tombs wrote:If that's the case, TGS, I'm going to spend some time at "the edge"....probably too much time. :D

Is there really an edge to the universe if the edge is always moving just beyond what you can perceive? ;)

Me, I still have the questions about this that I've had for a while now:

1. Under what conditions does the current edge of the existing universe get moved by the creation of new star systems and some factions in them around that part of the existing game universe?

Will the edge be moved only when your individual character's ship gets too close to the current edge?

Or will it be moved if any ships belonging to your faction approach the current edge?

Or will it be moved if any ships at all approach the current edge?

2. How few system hops away from the current edge of the universe does a ship have to be before new systems are generated to extend the area around that part of the edge? Just one hop away? Two? Five? Ten or more?

3. When new systems are generated to move part of the current edge of the universe, will there be a delay in the game while those new systems are generated?

Just thinking out loud again. Speculate away. :)
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Re: What is generated at "the edge"?

Postby bkdevil » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:12 pm

Speculation mode engaged:

1. Under what conditions does the current edge of the existing universe get moved by the creation of new star systems and some factions in them around that part of the existing game universe?


I think this would only occur when your ship crosses through a wormhole and into a new system beyond the edge. Before you enter a new system the game can by simplifying everything that occurs in that system (and every possible system connected to it) by boiling out the only details that matter to the player (and AI players) which is what is entering and exiting the system in terms of ships and their cargo. Every wormhole you discover but do not go through would create a very simplified model of what is on the other side, which would determine what is being produced on the other side for trade, and what kind of factions hold sway there. From this model the game could churn out traffic to exit the wormhole to the discovered side, and when ships enter the hole to travel to the undiscovered side a statistical calculation would take place determining whether they picked up resources, how much they sold what they had for, whether they were destroyed, etc.

3. When new systems are generated to move part of the current edge of the universe, will there be a delay in the game while those new systems are generated?


I sure hope not. Optimally the game could generate the details of a system from the simplified model it already possesses in the time it takes the player to warp to the new location. I dream of a seamless universe, sans loading screens or even delays!
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Re: What is generated at "the edge"?

Postby bkdevil » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:15 pm

This all does make me wonder if it will be possible for us to ever see a trader\explorer\mercenary in-system who has traveled from an extremely far distance away. I doubt the AI is going to be exploring just for the sake of doing so like a human would.
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