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Re: Pledge Transfers

#16
I think that's a pretty fair summary, Zanteogo.

One particular word deserves a little more attention, though, and that word is "hype." (The rest of this isn't aimed at you, Zant; it's just a general comment.)

Many -- most? -- people here, not surprisingly, come to Limit Theory with the assumption that it's a typical game: created to be sold to other people to play. That's usually a reasonable assumption.

But as I've pointed out a few times, that assumption appears to be 100% incompatible with reality when it comes to Josh and Limit Theory. He has specifically, directly, unambiguously stated that he's not making Limit Theory for anyone else but himself. He's not making LT to make money. He's not making LT for you or me to enjoy. He's making LT for himself because he personally wants to play that game.

Result: money is irrelevant. Time is irrelevant. Fans are irrelevant. Competition with similar games is irrelevant. Games journalists are (mostly) irrelevant. Kickstarter pledges are irrelevant. Marketing ("hype") is irrelevant.

None of these things, I believe, has any bearing whatsoever on what Josh creates and when he creates it. And until people realize and accept that their assumptions about these things do not apply to Josh and Limit Theory, they will continue to be confused when their otherwise-reasonable expectations are not met in this case.

Importantly, this does not mean we'll never see Limit Theory. Just because Josh is not motivated by external forces (money, time, disgruntled fans, etc.) does not mean he's not motivated, and powerfully, to deliver a playable game close to what was described in the Kickstarter pitch. Josh, in my opinion as a distant observer, is one of those souls who is as mightily driven by his internal personal expectations as he is almost entirely unconcerned with external expectations from other people. I can nearly promise you, because I am familiar with this personality style, that Josh feels far more pressure on himself from himself than any amount of support or criticism from us out here could ever provoke.

As such, if he still wants to play Limit Theory as described, then he will continue to work to create it until it's sufficiently close to "done," and nothing short of a health crisis will stop him.

And there's nothing we can do about that. So IMO there's no point in any further flogging of inapplicable expectations. Josh will deliver LT when he's ready, whenever that may be, and no force on earth will change that. So people can save themselves some unhappiness by either accepting "when it's done," or by bailing now and not looking back, because thinking that anything they can say or do will change Josh's work or communication behaviors is doomed to disappointment.

Me? I'm sticking around for the duration because believing that Josh is powerfully internally-driven is good enough for me. :)
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Re: Pledge Transfers

#17
I seem to remember Josh stating that LT was for the backers, and that the money for LT2 was for himself. I also seem to recall him saying that LT2 would involve him going off the radar for years while he works on it.

I'll try to find the exact quote.

But this makes me wonder, Has Limit Theory evolved into LT2? (minus the first person shooter elements). Think about it, LT wasn't supposed to be moddable and now it is, LT was supposed to have open communication and now Josh has gone silent. Maybe I'm over thinking it, but to me, the reason LT is taking so long has more to do with feature creep and less to do with putting out a game that fulfills the Kickstarter promises.

(I think we are getting LT2 instead of LT1)
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Re: Pledge Transfers

#18
BFett wrote:I seem to remember Josh stating that LT was for the backers, and that the money for LT2 was for himself. I also seem to recall him saying that LT2 would involve him going off the radar for years while he works on it.

I'll try to find the exact quote.

But this makes me wonder, Has Limit Theory evolved into LT2? (minus the first person shooter elements). Think about it, LT wasn't supposed to be moddable and now it is, LT was supposed to have open communication and now Josh has gone silent. Maybe I'm over thinking it, but to me, the reason LT is taking so long has more to do with feature creep and less to do with putting out a game that fulfills the Kickstarter promises.

(I think we are getting LT2 instead of LT1)
not sure how to feel about that. on the one hand, i'm excited, a bigger and better LT sounds awesome, but on the other hand, i want to actually play the game, and preferably sometime this year.
You have disobeyed God. Now you must pay the consequence.
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Re: Pledge Transfers

#19
Yeah, it's kind of a wild idea so I don't know how much merit it has. I can say that I'm in the same boat as you though. I'd like to be playing LT before the end of 2016, but at the same time I know that Josh needs time to make a great product.

Let's see where LT is at by the end of this year, by then we might know just how long it will take for release to become a reality.
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Re: Pledge Transfers

#20
The minute Josh started taking peoples money through the KS he made a deal. Saying the money is irrelevant isn't correct, saying Josh is making LT for himself is also not correct because the did the KS. LT is now for everyone who backed. If he was making the game solely for himself, he would never have done a KS. Ultimately you can't take peoples money and deliver nothing (well you can but it wouldn't be remotely cool). I fully understand why after 4 years and very little communication of late people are looking to offload pledges, particularly higher level ones. People put a lot of money into Josh and LT and they deserve either a product or if they choose their money back.

I still believe LT will be released and it will be brilliant. When it will be released is anyone's guess.
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Re: Pledge Transfers

#21
Philip Coutts wrote:The minute Josh started taking peoples money through the KS he made a deal. Saying the money is irrelevant isn't correct, saying Josh is making LT for himself is also not correct because the did the KS. LT is now for everyone who backed. If he was making the game solely for himself, he would never have done a KS. Ultimately you can't take peoples money and deliver nothing (well you can but it wouldn't be remotely cool). I fully understand why after 4 years and very little communication of late people are looking to offload pledges, particularly higher level ones. People put a lot of money into Josh and LT and they deserve either a product or if they choose their money back.

I still believe LT will be released and it will be brilliant. When it will be released is anyone's guess.
Actually, he made no deal. Kickstarter gives the dev no "Make the game or refund" ultimatum. Kickstarter is for funding projects you'd like to see come to fruition, if it doesn't then it's just like a failed investment, you move on. The investee does not have to refund you.

Personally I like pledge transfers, it takes any moral burden off of Josh since there are many users here willing to buy pledges.
I am literally and wholly in love with myself.
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Re: Pledge Transfers

#22
Well if you want to look at KS's in the recent past Elite Dangerous refunded pledges after the off line mode was pulled. Star Citizen is refunding pledges at present. I know what a KS is but lots of people don't, they back to high levels and expect a return. I never back more than I can afford to lose, it's that simple. I agree a pledge transfer system is a great idea, but it's sad it's come to this.

EDIT: From the KS site:

"If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps should include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers. For more information, see Section 4 of our Terms of Use"
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Re: Pledge Transfers

#23
Philip Coutts wrote: EDIT: From the KS site:

"If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps should include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers. For more information, see Section 4 of our Terms of Use"
Developers must find a solution, not necessarily pay back the money, especially if it's already been spent.
I am literally and wholly in love with myself.
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Re: Pledge Transfers

#24
BFett wrote:Let's see where LT is at by the end of this year, by then we might know just how long it will take for release to become a reality.
:shock: I was planning on throwing a massive party to celebrate the release of LT before Christmas, BFett. It's true I'm the only one with an invite...and I haven't accepted the invitation yet.

Winter is coming, or more precisely Summer is disappearing...fast. :(
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Re: Pledge Transfers

#25
Victor Tombs wrote:
BFett wrote:Let's see where LT is at by the end of this year, by then we might know just how long it will take for release to become a reality.
:shock: I was planning on throwing a massive party to celebrate the release of LT before Christmas, BFett. It's true I'm the only one with an invite...and I haven't accepted the invitation yet.

Winter is coming, or more precisely Summer is disappearing...fast. :(
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I am literally and wholly in love with myself.
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Re: Pledge Transfers

#27
BFett wrote:I seem to remember Josh stating that LT was for the backers, and that the money for LT2 was for himself. I also seem to recall him saying that LT2 would involve him going off the radar for years while he works on it.

I'll try to find the exact quote.

But this makes me wonder, Has Limit Theory evolved into LT2? (minus the first person shooter elements). Think about it, LT wasn't supposed to be moddable and now it is, LT was supposed to have open communication and now Josh has gone silent. Maybe I'm over thinking it, but to me, the reason LT is taking so long has more to do with feature creep and less to do with putting out a game that fulfills the Kickstarter promises.

(I think we are getting LT2 instead of LT1)
I think it perhaps was more Josh "growing up" and going from the amateur kid who though he could be ultra open with development to the adult who now understands the reality of the world. There is a reason why no one (or at least hardly anyone) runs an ultra open development cycle and takes community input really seriously. I think Josh perhaps thought he could be friends with his community when he really needs a client type relationship.

Also, Josh must had figured that by this point Limit Theory would have been long done and released, plus past a few beefy patches. He must have figured he would have moved on to something else by now.

So perhaps he is now developing Limit Theory the way he always figured he would build Limit Theory 2. Though I think at some level when he originally made the comment about how he would create Limit Theory 2 he must have, on some level, realized it's how he really should be doing it then currently.
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Re: Pledge Transfers

#28
[quote="Philip Coutts"]Well if you want to look at KS's in the recent past Elite Dangerous refunded pledges after the off line mode was pulled.

There was a caveat with this Philip.
If you hadn't played any form of the beta, then you were able to withdraw your pledge.

The problem was quite stark, as they made it known offline wasn't an option well into beta.
YAY PYTHON \o/

In Josh We Trust
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Re: Pledge Transfers

#29
I made this thread with the intent of having a clear and concise listing of pledges and and those willing to buy said pledges, not to have yet another of the already dozens of threads on the nature and ethics of Josh taking so long to deliver the game. I'm requesting the mods move this commentary to another thread so as to return it to its original purpose.
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Challenging your assumptions is good for your health, good for your business, and good for your future. Stay skeptical but never undervalue the importance of a new and unfamiliar perspective.
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Beauty may not save the world, but it's the only thing that can
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Re: Pledge Transfers

#30
Hyperion wrote:I made this thread with the intent of having a clear and concise listing of pledges and and those willing to buy said pledges, not to have yet another of the already dozens of threads on the nature and ethics of Josh taking so long to deliver the game. I'm requesting the mods move this commentary to another thread so as to return it to its original purpose.
Ditto.
YAY PYTHON \o/

In Josh We Trust
-=326.3827=-

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