Talvieno wrote: I'm still doing my best to get him to make a post soon.

I think at this point, the amount of hand-holding required to get this kid to do basic stuff like communicate about his product on a remotely reasonable timely basis is so over the top that even if LT sees full release it should be the last thing he does in the industry.

Everyone has stuff they don't want to do, aspects about a job that are their least favorite to deal with. If you can't put your big boy pants on and get it done, you'll never amount to much. Wasn't part of this whole campaign Josh preaching about how Limit Theory isn't just a game, it's his personal philosophy? That the only limits we really have are self-imposed? In which case it's a very interesting parallel; if he can't meet the promises he makes to communicate (see: road to beta, the golden days, the many "update coming soon" posts over the last couple years, not just these last few months of absence) due to personal limitations of whatever nature, why should we think that progress is being made on a game which was inspired by the same philosophy he's failing to overcome now?

Sigh. I really, really wish there were positive things to say here, but appearing on a forum after months of absence isn't any kind of indication of change. Just more of the same.

I have to wonder: Maybe it's that very philosophy that is doing him harm? Thinking "I am only not succeeding because I am not pushing hard enough" can't be good for real productivity. Maybe for a diet or exercise regimen, but not software development.

0111narwhalz wrote:I have to wonder: Maybe it's that very philosophy that is doing him harm? Thinking "I am only not succeeding because I am not pushing hard enough" can't be good for real productivity. Maybe for a diet or exercise regimen, but not software development.

I don't see how saying anything related to game content after more than two full years without not a single word about game content could be seen as any kind of pressure-to-push-too-hard.

kaeroku wrote: I think at this point, the amount of hand-holding required to get this kid to do basic stuff like communicate about his product on a remotely reasonable timely basis is so over the top that even if LT sees full release it should be the last thing he does in the industry.

Everyone has stuff they don't want to do, aspects about a job that are their least favorite to deal with. If you can't put your big boy pants on and get it done, you'll never amount to much. Wasn't part of this whole campaign Josh preaching about how Limit Theory isn't just a game, it's his personal philosophy? That the only limits we really have are self-imposed? In which case it's a very interesting parallel; if he can't meet the promises he makes to communicate (see: road to beta, the golden days, the many "update coming soon" posts over the last couple years, not just these last few months of absence) due to personal limitations of whatever nature, why should we think that progress is being made on a game which was inspired by the same philosophy he's failing to overcome now?

Sigh. I really, really wish there were positive things to say here, but appearing on a forum after months of absence isn't any kind of indication of change. Just more of the same.

{/disengage lurk_mode}

^ +1 I had been thinking this same thing lately, but didn't know how to word it. There are many things I love about my job and some that I really hate. But in the end I have to deal with all of it as part of my job. If it comes to the point where I can't stand it so much that I actively avoid the things I hate and can't deal with them, then it's time to find a new job. Or like my wife says at times "Suck it up, buttercup..."

{/engage lurk_mode}

Dromeda5 wrote:

0111narwhalz wrote:I have to wonder: Maybe it's that very philosophy that is doing him harm? Thinking "I am only not succeeding because I am not pushing hard enough" can't be good for real productivity. Maybe for a diet or exercise regimen, but not software development.

I don't see how saying anything related to game content after more than two full years without not a single word about game content could be seen as any kind of pressure-to-push-too-hard.

Perhaps. Though maybe, it is only a symptom; LT is his dream, and, through some convoluted train of thought, he has decided that we are less than that dream. Thus, if he can't fulfill the former, any effort spent elsewhere is wasted, since he's obviously not trying hard enough. The community is then trimmed from the list, and he goes radio-silent.
I don't profess to know the inner thought processes of The Josh, but this seems like the only explanation consistent with what little I know of him. He's not doing it out of spite; that's not him. He may have had another mental break, but Tal's brief summary suggests otherwise. He might fear our wrath, but I don't find that likely. Real-life "problems" are another option; after all, that's what lost us Macey Dean the first time, and presumably the second also.

I agree with the skepticism that is being expressed here. I see so many of the "regulars" around here getting so excited about Josh's supposed return. However, he is yet to post and even if he did this would not be the first time he came back for a short period only to leave for months afterward. While it's nice that they are getting some hope, my inclination to give Josh the benefit of the doubt is completely gone. Once again, we're seeing this idea that the only way he can post is if he's got everything EXACTLY how he wants it. If that's the case, then I think it is unlikely that we are going to hear anything of substance from him anytime soon. To me, the excuse that some forum issues are preventing him from posting is pretty ridiculous. You come back after a few months absent and what you are worried about is bots in the forum? Please. I see nothing here but a lame excuse to put off posting once again. Anything but posting immediately about the state of the project is a gross misevaluation of responsibilities and priorities.

masseffect7 wrote:I agree with the skepticism that is being expressed here. I see so many of the "regulars" around here getting so excited about Josh's supposed return. However, he is yet to post and even if he did this would not be the first time he came back for a short period only to leave for months afterward. While it's nice that they are getting some hope, my inclination to give Josh the benefit of the doubt is completely gone.

I may be one of the Pollyanna "regulars" you are referring to, masseffect7, but the reappearance of Josh, even if for a short while, is better than we've had for the past months. I'm not speculating on why he hasn't posted anything yet. No one can speak with any authority concerning when or if Josh will post. Nathan has just done his best to encourage him to post...that is all.

Hope is all we have for the moment but Josh has never lied to me personally so when he assures me that I will get what he promised me then I'm inclined to believe him. I'm aware that he's absolutely awful at giving estimates and he's well aware of this failing. He's visited IRC on a few occasions over the past few days and bored me rigid with code speak. I should include some other "regulars" who have the same effect on me but each to his own.

Josh is showing an interest in his forums again and I can be happy with that for now.

masseffect7 wrote:To me, the excuse that some forum issues are preventing him from posting is pretty ridiculous. You come back after a few months absent and what you are worried about is bots in the forum? Please. I see nothing here but a lame excuse to put off posting once again. Anything but posting immediately about the state of the project is a gross misevaluation of responsibilities and priorities.

I'm quite sure any kind of bot issue over here would prevent no one from issuing a statement on the kickstarter page, I mean, just saying. Like Paul Watzlawick put it, you cannot not communicate. Choosing not to say anything for such an extended period says a lot without needing a single word. I start believing when I've seen a stable increase of healthy communication going on between the community and Josh. This is toxic. But what else is new.

I would suggest a simple mounthly update log, in the form of

*******
Dec Update:
-tweaked AI for formation assault
-created new ancient Space-Wreck algorithm
-supported controller inputs
-refactored ship generation interfaces
-various graphical thingies

Jan Update:
-put in procedural exploration objectives
-stabilized the economy
-invented new scripting language
-various coding thingies
*********

without going into detail and completion estimates. With the occasional screenshot for the visual minds.
Maybe Josh puts too much pressure on himself to make a huge nice sounding update statement, and then
backs off from that, because it just cant be all that it should be. Too much stress...
In a project there is so much that just cant be showcased. A well done refactoring for example can be invaluable to a project, but
cant be presented with any flashy thing. "Hey, look it looks like before, but the code is now much cleaner", does not sound exiting,
but can be very much for the developer who has to work many more months on that.

Damocles wrote:I would suggest a simple mounthly update log, in the form of <snip>

So many similar suggestions have been proposed. There's no way that the general idea you're trying to get across hasn't been adequately mentioned. The issue isn't one of concept, but rather execution.

Zanteogo wrote: I personally don't think "Don't worry guys! You just have to trust me! Beta soon!!!" has any meaning at this point. The words are empty now coming from Josh. I am certain he means them when he says them, he seems like an honest and good guy, but having the intentions of doing something and the actual means to do it are totally different things.

I am looking forward to whatever Josh presents to us. I just hope it's not a bunch of empty promises he can't actually follow up on. Real information and real feed back to what the state of LT is and what he has done and what he has to do would be nice.

My gut still tells me this project is probably dead. I do hope my gut is wrong.

edit: I notice Josh is currently reading this thread, hello Josh!

Your not the only one.

Jeez. If you guys are so convinced that it's dead, and that Josh is just having us on... why are you still here posting?

mcsven wrote:Jeez. If you guys are so convinced that it's dead, and that Josh is just having us on... why are you still here posting?

Because some of us are here for the others who are here for the others, and the game is now only an incidental topic along with all the rest. A lingering residential elephant, if you will, whom everyone is quite happily ignoring.

0111narwhalz wrote:

mcsven wrote:Jeez. If you guys are so convinced that it's dead, and that Josh is just having us on... why are you still here posting?

Because some of us are here for the others who are here for the others, and the game is now only an incidental topic along with all the rest. A lingering residential elephant, if you will, whom everyone is quite happily ignoring.

Sort of same for me, but I also would like to see a conclusion to all this. I have invested much time posting here over the years and have actually got to know many people here on the personal level.

In the end, if it's the release of the game or Josh coming to us explaining a failure, I want to see this out.

mcsven wrote:Jeez. If you guys are so convinced that it's dead, and that Josh is just having us on... why are you still here posting?

I get your reaction, believe me.

But this is the General Unhappiness Megathread. I just try to remind myself that everything posted in here is low-utility venting.