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Re: The General Unhappiness Megathread

#949
0111narwhalz wrote:
Detritus wrote: Does this mean that I can derail this thread into conversations about cupcakes now? :mrgreen:
inb4 "(Mostly) Detritus' Cupcake Thread" :ghost:
Perhaps, my good narwhal... perhaps...
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Re: The General Unhappiness Megathread

#952
Alright, let's get back on track with the pissing and moaning.

Something that's been niggling me for a while and I just looked up to confirm my suspicions: modding was not a promised feature during the Kickstarter campaign. This idea that Limit Theory of course absolutely has to be moddable or wouldn't it be a travesty is something Josh has propagated himself.

Impossible for us to know, but I wonder how much of the imperative for switching from C++ to LTSL to Python has been to deliver a moddable game that none of his backers pledged to support. And what of that final stretch goal that didn't get reached until magically it did after a little creative editing? Now that the game is so late shouldn't a responsible creator consider dropping a feature that technically none of the backers (or not enough of them) pledged for in the first place?
Experiencing a significant gravitas shortfall
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Re: The General Unhappiness Megathread

#953
I would welcome modding support as a consumer rather than creator. I never backed the game with that in mind, however its inclusion is welcome as long as it is technically possible. If it ends up being a blocker for the entire project then it would be sensible to drop it, however it would be a shame to lose it as I can imagine the possibilities.
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Re: The General Unhappiness Megathread

#954
AFAIR the switch to python was because LSTL simply didn't scale, and fixing would have been such a monumental task that switching languages was a more practical course of action. The benefits of writing most of the game in a scripting language in the first place were primarily to do with development processes, with modding being a nice side-effect of that.

Despite the large LTSL detour, I suspect it was still a good call.
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Re: The General Unhappiness Megathread

#955
Employee 2-4601 wrote: Despite the large LTSL detour, I suspect it was still a good call.
I think it may have been better if Josh didn't try to sell LTSL as some sort of second coming. Honestly, in the many months he spent moving stuff over to it, it was always "It will be so worth it guys! Content explosion coming soon!"

No explosion of content happened, and then he went dark.. returned and all of a sudden LTSL was going and being replaced with something new..

In case anyone has forgotten, this was Josh's reasoning for the move, and justification of LTSL:

(from back in December 2015, damn, almost a year already!?)
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Yes, those were back in the days when I was simply pumping out C++ as fast as I could. And there's nothing wrong with that. I could resume that approach today and have a much lesser form (and non-moddable) of Limit Theory out in a very reasonable timespan (and that's only because I've re-architectured the engine and now know how to prevent monoliths). But that's not going to happen, because, as my conception of Limit Theory matured, modding became something that I simply had to have. I want you all to be a part of Limit Theory's development. I want to see what people can do with this technology over which I have slaved for years. I want to play insane variations of my game that blow my mind. And it's all very much possible. I'm fine with dropping other content (especially content that has crept in since the original design doc) -- it can be appended later via modding. But I'm no longer fine with a non-moddable LT, and this is where the real challenge lies.

About LTSL -- the need for LTSL originally arose from a feeling of uncleanliness that I was getting from the LT codebase. It was taking me longer and longer to make trivial changes and recompile / view the outcome, it was getting harder and harder to figure out what was affecting what, and debugging was becoming more and more challenging. All of these problems were scaling linearly with the size of the codebase, meaning the difficulty of development was, effectively, scaling quadratically with time. This is, perhaps, responsible for how 'suddenly' things seemed to change. Hitting the wall was not a linear-time process, unfortunately. LTSL was nowhere near a mistake, and it did cause a fairly significant explosion in my eyes. A lot of it was UI, but that's because UI is one of the most annoying things in existence to hard-code. Remember the latest market interface? The assets interface with holographic views of each asset? There was also a working ship builder UI that was to be revealed in RTB 3.0, which never happened. Warp rails and their graphics effects, HUD, radar, target information UI, scanner UI, custom AI maneuvers, new station algorithms, new ship algorithms -- all LTSL. LTSL did the job. But it was a temporary 'escape' from the real problem: that the engine had grown too difficult to deal with, hence the need to 'escape' into a lightweight scripting engine.

But, as nothing is perfect, LTSL began to show its own problem -- performance. Towards the end of LTE (the Limit Theory Engine), much of the functionality was offloaded to LTSL in an attempt to fix the 'monolithic' problem. But LTSL struck back with performance limitations. It couldn't handle the intensity of true engine work. We were stuck. I could keep pushing and pushing and pushing in an engine that was becoming increasingly difficult to maintain, I could suck it up and accept the (fairly drastic) negative performance implications of engine work in LTSL, or I could use everything I had learned from both experiences and do something better. Anyone who knows me knows immediately which option I chose.


Here is what I would like everyone to fundamentally understand about Limit Theory:

It has ALWAYS been about working smart -- it has ALWAYS been about creating a beautiful technology in order to enable the creation of a beautiful game.

In the beginning, plenty of people said "no way, not gonna happen with a one-man dev team." And then guess what happened? I developed technology that allowed me to show the progress of a game at quite an impressive rate.

Despite the paradigm to which so many have become accustomed -- "shiny new content!" -- Limit Theory development has always been fundamentally about THINKING and finding the smart way to do things. That's the only way it can happen.

And that's exactly what's happening now. Yes, it has taken time, but I now have an elegant technical solution to both the monolithic engine problem AND the scripting performance problem. That much I will divulge. When this solution has been built up to the point of supporting all of LT's existing content, the content algorithms will simply be transferred over -- no work will have been in vain (not even LTE or LTSL, because they were important milestones for my coming to understand the right way). This time, I can guarantee that there will be no circularity, simply because there is nothing more that I could possibly do, technically, to energize LT's development than what I am doing now (to explain what I mean would be both too divulging and too technical). There will be plenty of back-and-forth in finessing the game, but not technology. One can either choose to believe or not believe me in this regard...it doesn't really matter, as LT will come in time and all of this will be over when the release drops.

^ This is the last time I will provide a justification of my current direction, I'll be keeping this link handy for the future.


And about that 'finding an entry point' thing that someone recently expressed (imagine my joy in being reminded of this dev log) -- it was never actually an issue. It was never about Limit Theory. What I was expressing in that log was a projection of my mental state onto my current task. The reality is that I was degenerating mentally to the point of being unable to see a big picture, to find a coherent strand of thinking to follow, to see LT as the beautiful concatenation of interesting subsystems that don't have an entry point. It is entirely possible to develop each independently, and to perform incremental testing by joining them as they are ready to be joined. I no longer have the problem that was being expressed in this log, because it was not a problem with Limit Theory -- it was a problem with me, and, as you all know, I've been working to fix 'me' since the end of the dark days.
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Re: The General Unhappiness Megathread

#956
Poet1960 wrote:
Grumblesaur wrote:Poet, for someone who detests aimless venting, you sure do aimlessly vent a lot.

I was just thinking that myself. Don't know why I even bother. Complete waste of time. So.....bye.
But you only have two more posts until you're a Rear Admiral! Perhaps post a couple google image searched trains or ducks?
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Re: The General Unhappiness Megathread

#958
Employee 2-4601 wrote:AFAIR the switch to python was because LSTL simply didn't scale
That covers the switch from LTSL to Python, but what of the switch from C++ to LTSL? Let me guess, "C++ doesn't scale". If you do a web search for "does Python scale" you'll see plenty of conflicting opinions.
Experiencing a significant gravitas shortfall
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Re: The General Unhappiness Megathread

#959
The ghost of Josh speaking through Zanteogo wrote:modding became something that I simply had to have.
Ah, shoot. That's bad.
It doesn't matter whether it's viable or not. This guy is obsessive, and he will never release the game until modding support is in and everything.
Buckling in for a 2022 release. :|
Josh, if by some utterly absurd chance you're reading all this without logging in for protection against stalking/OMIGOSHJOSHISHERE hype, just drop modding support until after 1.0. Nobody will hate you. In fact, everyone who hasn't already purged their memories of you with bleach and volcanic ash will love you.
Yes, I know, you're going to put in modding support anyway.
But please don't.
Make it a post-1.0 thing.

--IronDuke
Knowledge is Power, and Power goes in Cars.
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Re: The General Unhappiness Megathread

#960
Zero Gravitas wrote:
Employee 2-4601 wrote:AFAIR the switch to python was because LSTL simply didn't scale
That covers the switch from LTSL to Python, but what of the switch from C++ to LTSL? Let me guess, "C++ doesn't scale".
You needn't guess; I covered that in the sentence which immediately followed the one you quoted.
If you do a web search for "does Python scale" you'll see plenty of conflicting opinions.
Sure. But such a web search would be tremendously vague, wouldn't it? We're not talking about whether a particular language scales for all possible use-cases. We're talking about whether a very specific choice of a particular version of a particular language, sometimes being compiled into faster code where performance is key (at the cost of some additional constraints), sometimes not compiled where more flexible code is more beneficial, will scale for the specific kinds of use to which it is being put to in this one game.

The author of the code in question felt that it would. He may or may not be correct in the end, but not one of us is in a better position to evaluate that than he is.

The notion that a web search for some generic terms is equal (or even remotely close) to the process Josh went through to make this decision, based on his in-depth knowledge of the problems that he ran into with LTSL, is ludicrous.

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