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Post

Re: Proof

#16
I know that we all want something. We want to see Limit Theory, the development process, like the old days. The thing is, it's not the old days any more. Josh isn't working alone at his home anymore. He has people who are watching his progress and ensuring that he finishes the game within their time table; and no I'm not talking about the backers.

This is the traditional approach. We all hate it, but maybe companies do this kind of thing for a reason. Maybe there is logic behind the process that we the outside community simply can't see and won't see until the time is right.

What does this mean for us? It means we wait, or we move on. Those are the only two options. Pick your option wisely, then accept it and live it out.

I'm usually the nice guy and I'd like to stay that way. As long as we are civil, as long as we are considerate of all parties, I think we will remain the best community on the internet.
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Post

Re: Proof

#17
Fair enough, I can understand all viewpoints expressed in the thread so far (with the exception of TGS's 'nil' expectations for this game -- come on now!)

No game or engine screenies -- I'm still not graphically back to where we were previously (meaning I haven't brought all of the rendering and shader tech over to the new platform yet)...have actually been focusing a lot more on the gameplay side of things, and can I just say (I think I've already said this)...it's an absolute joy writing gameplay code in augmented Python (yes, this was going to be revealed in the 'proof' anyway) as opposed to C++.

I use dropbox for my version control (wait, what?). Yeah, seriously, consider it: I have like 4 different machines at the moment, and I need code to be current across all of them. At the same time I need the ability to rollback. Dropbox makes both easy (you pay an extra $15 or something like that per year to get an entire year's worth of version history regardless of how many versions there are or how big the file is....that's kind of amazing). The moment I save a file it's as though I've committed a new version, which is immediately available on other machines. Yes, this is awesome for a solo developer. No, don't try this on a team or many people will be angry.

So for your 'proof' I just printed out two simple version histories, one for ltheory.py (the entrypoint that basically launches the game without doing much else) and one for pyengine.cpp (please DON'T start using the name 'PyEngine' to describe what LT runs on because that's a temporary name!!) which is the entrypoint for the 'compiled' part, which, as I've explained before, basically configures and sets up what you now know is a Python interpreter, and injects facilities for graphics programming as well as JIT magic for pulling any of the performance-critical python down to native. Those histories, or rather, a few pages of them -- dropbox does a scrolling load thing -- are attached. Incidentally I did edit them both earlier today, despite the fact that these two files don't change much in comparison to the directory structures (hence the gaps). Most of what I do now is adding components (all of which are part of a module), data structures that are part of gameplay, shaders, etc. So most of my change is actually adding to the directory structures (no, sorry, not going to give a dir tree! Too many secrets :) ). In some places I actually have code that automatically scans a certain directory to load assets (this makes both dev and modding easier! For example, to create a new component that can be added to an in-game object and give it some kind of behavior, all you have to do is write a new code file (yes, .py) in the component directory and, if you did things correctly, you'll be able to call object.add(MyNewComponent(blah, blah)) without changing code anywhere else!

I know a few of you will now undoubtedly have reactions to the fact that I've just revealed the game language to be Python, (yes, I'm sorry Flatfingers...I am...), but please keep in mind
  • Huge, huge, huge amounts of thought went into choosing it over all the other options I had on the table, and after a lot of going back and forth, pro's and con'sing, running different tests, I was able to make this choice with full confidence.
  • Performance-critical code will not run in Python, so restrain the knee-jerk "oh noes it's going to be slowwwww" reactions (I mean, I would have that reaction if a dev said he was using python for a serious game...until he mentioned native JITing :) )
  • The 'magic' mechanism is of my own coding, this is not pypy or psycho or Cython, this is Josh + CPython. I chose this route because I believe it represents the widest spectrum of performance-devtime trading capability. None of the above, with the exception of psycho (which is now abandoned), could routinely perform as well as native code (Cython comes closest but it doesn't have as much runtime information to work with as I do :geek:). On the other hand, since it's CPython, it's a full and complete implementation of Python 2.7 (yes, 2.7, not 3.*, another calculated decision), meaning no restrictions or quirks. So in your python functions, you've got as much 'expressiveness' as you can possibly have. In your python functions that are marked for native conversion, you've got as much speed as you can possibly have (although you do lose a bit of expressiveness, naturally).
Yes, I was waiting to drop the P-bomb because I knew I would need to provide some comforting words with it :P So, those of you who plan on modding LT can run off and start learning Python (2.7!) now :)

And those of you who want proof that I work on LT, check the pdfs. If those aren't enough (because it's definitely worth my time to forge version histories?? :ghost: ), hang tight. I will try to get graphical 'proof' of the underlying progress as soon as I can :thumbup: Once again, I really appreciate you guys being patient with me. It's been a longer journey than I ever imagined, especially in terms of my own state, but it is converging :)
ltheory version history.pdf
(75.83 KiB) Downloaded 2435 times
pyengine version history.pdf
(106.68 KiB) Downloaded 1596 times
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
Post

Re: Proof

#18
PS ~ Hyperion, I can't help but notice the hexagonal bokeh in your sig....are you....are you trying to push me off the deep end? :P

Well, I guess not...I don't think I ever mentioned that the beginning of my breakdown involved a lot of math related to hexagons and hexagonal lattices...still...demanding proof AND flashing hexagonal grids at me!?

:ghost: :P
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
Post

Re: Proof

#20
Well, I'm certainly willing to change my sig if you like :)

Thank you. I really appreciate this. You have genuinely just squashed months of doubt and frustration with that post. Keep it up wonderboy. I am absolutely and totally serious about planning to come down there for the launch party. :D
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When you're trying to fill an infinite multiverse, if you're not willing to consider the entire creative output of humanity as a starting point, you're wasting your time.
User: JoshParnell is accountable for this user's actions.
Post

Re: Proof

#23
JoshParnell wrote:Fair enough, I can understand all viewpoints expressed in the thread so far (with the exception of TGS's 'nil' expectations for this game -- come on now!)

No game or engine screenies -- I'm still not graphically back to where we were previously (meaning I haven't brought all of the rendering and shader tech over to the new platform yet)...have actually been focusing a lot more on the gameplay side of things, and can I just say (I think I've already said this)...it's an absolute joy writing gameplay code in augmented Python (yes, this was going to be revealed in the 'proof' anyway) as opposed to C++.

I use dropbox for my version control (wait, what?). Yeah, seriously, consider it: I have like 4 different machines at the moment, and I need code to be current across all of them. At the same time I need the ability to rollback. Dropbox makes both easy (you pay an extra $15 or something like that per year to get an entire year's worth of version history regardless of how many versions there are or how big the file is....that's kind of amazing). The moment I save a file it's as though I've committed a new version, which is immediately available on other machines. Yes, this is awesome for a solo developer. No, don't try this on a team or many people will be angry.

So for your 'proof' I just printed out two simple version histories, one for ltheory.py (the entrypoint that basically launches the game without doing much else) and one for pyengine.cpp (please DON'T start using the name 'PyEngine' to describe what LT runs on because that's a temporary name!!) which is the entrypoint for the 'compiled' part, which, as I've explained before, basically configures and sets up what you now know is a Python interpreter, and injects facilities for graphics programming as well as JIT magic for pulling any of the performance-critical python down to native. Those histories, or rather, a few pages of them -- dropbox does a scrolling load thing -- are attached. Incidentally I did edit them both earlier today, despite the fact that these two files don't change much in comparison to the directory structures (hence the gaps). Most of what I do now is adding components (all of which are part of a module), data structures that are part of gameplay, shaders, etc. So most of my change is actually adding to the directory structures (no, sorry, not going to give a dir tree! Too many secrets :) ). In some places I actually have code that automatically scans a certain directory to load assets (this makes both dev and modding easier! For example, to create a new component that can be added to an in-game object and give it some kind of behavior, all you have to do is write a new code file (yes, .py) in the component directory and, if you did things correctly, you'll be able to call object.add(MyNewComponent(blah, blah)) without changing code anywhere else!

I know a few of you will now undoubtedly have reactions to the fact that I've just revealed the game language to be Python, (yes, I'm sorry Flatfingers...I am...), but please keep in mind
  • Huge, huge, huge amounts of thought went into choosing it over all the other options I had on the table, and after a lot of going back and forth, pro's and con'sing, running different tests, I was able to make this choice with full confidence.
  • Performance-critical code will not run in Python, so restrain the knee-jerk "oh noes it's going to be slowwwww" reactions (I mean, I would have that reaction if a dev said he was using python for a serious game...until he mentioned native JITing :) )
  • The 'magic' mechanism is of my own coding, this is not pypy or psycho or Cython, this is Josh + CPython. I chose this route because I believe it represents the widest spectrum of performance-devtime trading capability. None of the above, with the exception of psycho (which is now abandoned), could routinely perform as well as native code (Cython comes closest but it doesn't have as much runtime information to work with as I do :geek:). On the other hand, since it's CPython, it's a full and complete implementation of Python 2.7 (yes, 2.7, not 3.*, another calculated decision), meaning no restrictions or quirks. So in your python functions, you've got as much 'expressiveness' as you can possibly have. In your python functions that are marked for native conversion, you've got as much speed as you can possibly have (although you do lose a bit of expressiveness, naturally).
Yes, I was waiting to drop the P-bomb because I knew I would need to provide some comforting words with it :P So, those of you who plan on modding LT can run off and start learning Python (2.7!) now :)

And those of you who want proof that I work on LT, check the pdfs. If those aren't enough (because it's definitely worth my time to forge version histories?? :ghost: ), hang tight. I will try to get graphical 'proof' of the underlying progress as soon as I can :thumbup: Once again, I really appreciate you guys being patient with me. It's been a longer journey than I ever imagined, especially in terms of my own state, but it is converging :)
ltheory version history.pdf
pyengine version history.pdf
Please don't take my comments about no expectations personally. I am heavily invested in Star Citizen as well, but I don't have many expectations with that either (More than LT though because of 1. My investment level 2. I can SEE progress they're currently making). Though if it fails it fails. I consider it a bad investment and move on. I had some expectations back when we were getting regular updates for LT, but in all honesty from my perspective my concern grew that you essentially broke the game and are now putting it back together again. Without sharing any of that process with us.

So you see, I have no reason to have expectations with LT. A broken game is not a game by my standards. I haven't read your post yet in detail but I wanted to clarify my 'expectations' comment. I missed the kickstarter for LT by a few months, I didn't even know it existed. So I'm not invested. Information flow has stopped. The last I know of it is that you're literally putting it back together. I've got nothing else to go on. Take that as you will.
Post

Re: Proof

#24
JoshParnell wrote:** random sputtering **
"PYTHONG"
** VERSIONS **
Holy crap you hairy coder beast!
That's a ton of revisions. :D
Good to see!

Pythong is a reasonable language.
I presume you will be a good opensourcer and upstream the JoshPythongConvertor when LT is releasable? That'd be neat.

I am very much looking forward to playing around with your code now.
And although I *VERY* much hate pythong's enforced whitespace over a proper c-like brace structure, I can see how it enforces readability in code.

I am very much looking forward to writing the Multiplayer Mod now. (morso than before) :D
°˖◝(ಠ‸ಠ)◜˖°
Toba - A Development Dump
Post

Re: Proof

#25
Silverware wrote:
JoshParnell wrote:** random sputtering **
"PYTHONG"
** VERSIONS **
Holy crap you hairy coder beast!
That's a ton of revisions. :D
Good to see!

Pythong is a reasonable language.
I presume you will be a good opensourcer and upstream the JoshPythongConvertor when LT is releasable? That'd be neat.

I am very much looking forward to playing around with your code now.
And although I *VERY* much hate pythong's enforced whitespace over a proper c-like brace structure, I can see how it enforces readability in code.

I am very much looking forward to writing the Multiplayer Mod now. (morso than before) :D
Did you just say Pythong? :P
Post

Re: Proof

#26
TGS wrote:Please don't take my comments about no expectations personally. I am heavily invested in Star Citizen as well, but I don't have many expectations with that either (More than LT though because of 1. My investment level 2. I can SEE progress they're currently making). Though if it fails it fails. I consider it a bad investment and move on. I had some expectations back when we were getting regular updates for LT, but in all honesty from my perspective my concern grew that you essentially broke the game and are now putting it back together again. Without sharing any of that process with us.

So you see, I have no reason to have expectations with LT. A broken game is not a game by my standards. I haven't read your post yet in detail but I wanted to clarify my 'expectations' comment. I missed the kickstarter for LT by a few months, I didn't even know it existed. So I'm not invested. Information flow has stopped. The last I know of it is that you're literally putting it back together. I've got nothing else to go on. Take that as you will.
I meant no harm TGS, really just poking :) I understand where you're coming from and hey, you're still around the forums so that's already more than I could even ask for.

I hope you'll still be interested when LT finally does come out :)
Silverware wrote:
JoshParnell wrote:** random sputtering **
"PYTHONG"
** VERSIONS **
Holy crap you hairy coder beast!
That's a ton of revisions. :D
Good to see!

Pythong is a reasonable language.
I presume you will be a good opensourcer and upstream the JoshPythongConvertor when LT is releasable? That'd be neat.

I am very much looking forward to playing around with your code now.
And although I *VERY* much hate pythong's enforced whitespace over a proper c-like brace structure, I can see how it enforces readability in code.

I am very much looking forward to writing the Multiplayer Mod now. (morso than before) :D
Glad you're happy about it...yes, this means LT will basically be more open source than I ever really intended it to be, but such is the cost of wanting it to be moddable to the extent that I desire. In return I expect you guys to do some bloody awesome things with mods so more people will buy LT and I can spend the rest of my life continuously rewriting UberEngine N + 1 working happily on games and PCG stuffs :shifty:
TGS wrote:Did you just say Pythong? :P
Oh lord. I'm surprised I didn't see that coming :silent: (OTOH, I do recognize the abuse potential of what I just said)
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
Post

Re: Proof

#27
JoshParnell wrote: In return I expect you guys to do some bloody awesome things with mods so more people will buy LT and I can spend the rest of my life continuously rewriting UberEngine N + 1
Game Developer is such a limiting title. Writing engines that allow others to create vibrant living universes?... Now that's something special.
Image
When you're trying to fill an infinite multiverse, if you're not willing to consider the entire creative output of humanity as a starting point, you're wasting your time.
User: JoshParnell is accountable for this user's actions.
Post

Re: Proof

#28
And as for some kind of communication stream, I really do want to start something. Not daily, obviously, and not set to any specific format. It's one of the million things I'm thinking about right now. What I really need is something more like a twitter feed embedded in the forum. Something where I can just be developing, have one of those 'woah' moments, press some magical hotkey, write a sentence or two in a textfield that pops up on my screen, optionally attach a screencap, then hit enter and resume devving (and it would automatically get posted to here). It's one of those things where I need a solution that doesn't break the flow of my focus (just like in-engine live script updates allowed).

At any rate, know that I am thinking about how to do it better.

(Yes, I see that one coming as well :ghost: )
Hyperion wrote:Game Developer is such a limiting title. Writing engines that allow others to create vibrant living universes?... Now that's something special.
:P Perhaps I should be called an Engine Developer who dabbles in content :oops:

(jk! don't panic anyone!)
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
Post

Re: Proof

#29
JoshParnell wrote:And as for some kind of communication stream, I really do want to start something. Not daily, obviously, and not set to any specific format. It's one of the million things I'm thinking about right now. What I really need is something more like a twitter feed embedded in the forum. Something where I can just be developing, have one of those 'woah' moments, press some magical hotkey, write a sentence or two in a textfield that pops up on my screen, optionally attach a screencap, then hit enter and resume devving (and it would automatically get posted to here). It's one of those things where I need a solution that doesn't break the flow of my focus (just like in-engine live script updates allowed).

At any rate, know that I am thinking about how to do it better.

(Yes, I see that one coming as well :ghost: )
Hyperion wrote:Game Developer is such a limiting title. Writing engines that allow others to create vibrant living universes?... Now that's something special.
:P Perhaps I should be called an Engine Developer who dabbles in content :oops:

(jk! don't panic anyone!)
You could always just send whatever your thinking to someone over Skype or something, and get them to do the rest?
Honestly, I love the idea of LT, I'm just finding it very hard to stay invested in the game rather than just the community with such a low level of communication about the game. (Nothing against you or LT Josh, just me being me :) )
I am literally and wholly in love with myself.
Post

Re: Proof

#30
Black--Snow wrote:You could always just send whatever your thinking to someone over Skype or something, and get them to do the rest?
Honestly, I love the idea of LT, I'm just finding it very hard to stay invested in the game rather than just the community with such a low level of communication about the game. (Nothing against you or LT Josh, just me being me :) )
Well I'd prefer something automated but I'm sure I could get someone to do so if it came to that.

And no worries, frankly I'm very happy to have people invested in the community -- it means they'll still be around when more game-side content starts coming out again :thumbup:
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford

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