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Proof

#1
It's been itching at me for some time now, as it probably has for plenty of others. I'll put it simply.

I want proof that development is taking place, that the game is closer to being finished than it was last year.

Not "Things are exciting" or "I can work so much faster now" or "I know what I'm doing" Not words and rumors about release date leaks, but cold hard proof. An image or video of something new, something we haven't seen before. It doesn't have to be much, but unless I missed something, it has been over 14 months since there was a single shred of proof that the game has developed beyond where it was in January of 2015.

Josh, I'm not calling you a liar, and I understand that you're holding your cards tight which is fine, but absolutely nothing since you declared the beginning of Golden Days almost 8 months ago? I'm sorry, but I'm not big on faith, and this total silence is testing those limits. Words and promises won't keep that alive, only evidence would carry me months and miles longer, and I have a feeling I'm not alone.


Mods:
I know this probably belongs in another thread, but it seems more likely to achieve its objective as its own thread.
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The conquest of Nature is to be achieved through Number and Measure.
It's better to have questions you can't answer than answers you can't question.

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Re: Proof

#5
Hyperion wrote:It's been itching at me for some time now, as it probably has for plenty of others. I'll put it simply.

I want proof that development is taking place, that the game is closer to being finished than it was last year.
I hear what your saying Hyperion. However, I am sure you are well aware that Josh has issues. Part of these issues is that he just can't take a quick screen shot or a short video and post them publicly.

In the past when he felt that he needed to, but didn't think he could release the quality of stuff he wanted to, he would get stressed out and his health suffered in the end.

He tried the simple road to beta format, and could not keep it up and ended up have a total mental break down.

Josh has also said that the stuff he is working on is dull back ground "stuff", of course we would be happy with new pic or vid of old stuff...

However, it's not going to happen until he is ready. That could be tomorrow, or next year. Nothing we can do to change this.
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Re: Proof

#6
I know we aren't using that leaked "beta" date as official word or anything but would it be fair to say that if we don't see or hear anything around that time (around that time being at most two months or so past the date) then maybe, maybe by then we can start to worry.
:D
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Re: Proof

#7
BMRX wrote:I know we aren't using that leaked "beta" date as official word or anything but would it be fair to say that if we don't see or hear anything around that time (around that time being at most two months or so past the date) then maybe, maybe by then we can start to worry.
Josh has had something like (4?) offical dates so far and has been unable to deliver. If he fails to make this unoffical beta date, I don't think you need to worry.

It's been more than clear that the current release date is "when it's ready".

"When it's ready" could be another 4 years. Nothing anyone here can do to change this.
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Re: Proof

#8
Zanteogo wrote:
BMRX wrote:I know we aren't using that leaked "beta" date as official word or anything but would it be fair to say that if we don't see or hear anything around that time (around that time being at most two months or so past the date) then maybe, maybe by then we can start to worry.
Josh has had something like (4?) offical dates so far and has been unable to deliver. If he fails to make this unoffical beta date, I don't think you need to worry.

It's been more than clear that the current release date is "when it's ready".

"When it's ready" could be another 4 years. Nothing anyone here can do to change this.
Fair enough! Let's hope 4 years isn't the case. :D
:D
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Re: Proof

#10
I understand that Zan, but even work on "dull background stuff" should have given some sort of visual result in 8 months. Even a complete rewrite from scratch should have produced something by now. And by proof, I don't need to see station models or slice of life screenshots (though that would work). A diagram, a menu, A look into an NPC's stats and goals, a list of contracts and status of those contracts put out by a colony, a faction roster, whatever, all would work.

It really doesn't matter whether Josh is ready to release these things in terms of development, if he's working on the game and making progress, then good for him; he knows he's making progress and that means ultimately someday it will probably be released regardless of what you or I think. I'm just saying that if he doesn't provide proof, I have no more reason to believe it.
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The conquest of Nature is to be achieved through Number and Measure.
It's better to have questions you can't answer than answers you can't question.

Imagination Fertilizer
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Re: Proof

#11
Hyperion wrote: I'm just saying that if he doesn't provide proof, I have no more reason to believe it.
Forgive me for being blunt here, but my answer is: "Then don't believe it".

What does that change? Nothing really. The game will be released at the same point or won't.

Anyways, I do understand what you're saying.
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Re: Proof

#12
I would also like proof of that. I image everyone would.

But... The relevant question is, or what? Why is your being convinced progress is happening relevant?

We'd all like to see content, you're just stating the obvious. But that doesn't actually make any difference to anything. Josh could shut down these forums tomorrow and never say a word until release and while that would be unfortunate, communication is his prerogative.

So, if you're actually saying "I'm a backer and I want proof or I'm going to pursue legal action", then I don't really agree with it on principle with my opinion being that Kickstarters are allowed to fail and only intentional scams should be dealt with legally. That said, I'm not a backer, it's not my money so it's not my business how you feel about it.

But if you're not making a threat and just asking for content. Then the only relevant response is "I would also like to see stuff". And that's kind of the end of the discussion value here.
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Re: Proof

#14
As much as I hate bringing this up, but this is actually similar to a 'debate' I brought up on the Star Citizen forums (Which I won't link because you don't wanna get into that cesspool)

Josh has an obligation to be a lot more open than he has been. We all get that he has issues and resolving them is obviously an ongoing thing. That doesn't eliminate his obligations. Both the ones outlined in kickstarter as well as his own personal obligations. Now his personal obligations can and clearly have changed, but simply going dark and providing nothing is damaging to the trust he has built up over the years. In the SC thread the word promise came up. Why? Because over there people like to apply the word promise to everything CIG says. Then use that as leverage against them. Luckily the LT community isn't that bad.

There is some take away from that though. The take away is that much of the interaction between us (community) and Josh is built on trust. The only real promises I know of that were made is that he'll deliver the game. That is outlined in the kickstarter. His keeping us up to date is also outlined in kickstarter. Now you can debate over the finer points of that and whether or not he's breaking his obligations but unless you are willing and able to pursue it legally there's really no point bringing it up.

Now obviously there is a reason *I* have brought it up. The reason is, trust. Promises aside, Josh has built up an enormous amount of trust. Trust that is rapidly declining due to his silence. The reasoning, the validity of his issues are all irrelevant. People only have so much good will in them and it can only be taken advantage of so much. Is Josh taking advantage? Absolutely. Is it malicious? No of course not. Josh is a good guy. The only person that can explain why he's keeping things close to his chest is him. Which is really the underlying point. He hasn't explained THAT. He's explained that it's coming, and that he IS holding it close to his chest. But not why.

That is the question, that is the issue. That is what needs to be addressed. If your faith in whether or not he's actively developing has shaken your trust in him to the point that you need to call it into question, that's the point at which you need bail out. Demanding proof isn't gonna achieve anything. If you wanna demand something, demand to know why he's keeping it close to his chest. Because that's really what the issue is. Proof of development is a symptom. We need to get to the root of the problem. Which is why he's keeping it so secret. Perhaps it is to surprise us? Perhaps he's gotten tired of the critique and questions. If he values this community and its members. Then the trust we as a community have shown in him through all of this should now be reciprocated. He should tell us why he's keeping it so closed up. If it is a surprise, great. If it is frustration or difficulties that's fine. Either way that's what we need to know. Showing screen shots or whatever isn't gonna change anything. It'll only delay the question by a few months. If that.

Edit: Just to add, he also isn't obligated to do either of those things. But I suspect trust will fade even further if he simply does nothing. Which he can do. Hell it may not even matter 'in the end' but for now it matters. I personally don't have any trust left to give. I also personally don't care if he gives or doesn't give. My expectations of the game at this point are almost nil. So anything above that is gonna be a bonus for me.

Will he? Won't he? Don't know. Not even really sure I care. That's just the score at this point as far as I see it.
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Re: Proof

#15
TGS wrote:Not even really sure I care.
Then why get on a soapbox?

If Josh's own (repeated) pronouncements on the subject are not sufficient, see Zanteogo's posts in this thread.

On a personal note, I was never as invested in Limit Theory the game as I was in Josh Parnell the promising (and naive) developer. His manic journey over the first two years of Limit Theory's development took him from euphoric highs to crushing lows and eventually drove him over the edge. That he has returned to developing Limit Theory after a mental breakdown speaks to his perseverance and commitment.

It is undoubtedly disappointing to most of those following this project that Josh has chosen to resume development behind closed doors. Given his geeky loquaciousness on his project prior to his breakdown, it is relatively easy to conclude that his reticence to provide updates is part of a coping mechanism.

A measure of good will along with a great deal of innocence have been lost. On the flip side, let us hope that sanity and a sense of balance have been restored.
I know not what life is, nor death.
Year in year out-all but a dream.
Both Heaven and Hell are left behind;
I stand in the moonlit dawn,
Free from clouds of attachment.

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