luniquekero wrote:
Thats what everyone is already doing. Only difference is that I add step 4, which is to denounce Josh' lack of transparency and progress. "Someone" has to seed a bit of reality in this cultist forum.

I'm curious, what do you gain by this? (Besides the personal satisfaction of self distinction and/or attention) If you believe this forum is cultist, does it being so affect you in some way?

Hyperion, you first told us who are making complains that we should get a life (or shift to our lives). Now you tell someone else that he/she is just looking for distinction and/or satisfaction. I politely invite you to stop doing such provocative or offensive statements, shake virtual hands, and move on with the debates we might have in an unarmed fashion.

As I have been doing, I promise to keep the peaceful track

My best regards to you!

Kimny wrote:Hyperion, you first told us who are making complains that we should get a life (or shift to our lives). Now you tell someone else that he/she is just looking for distinction and/or satisfaction. I politely invite you to stop doing such provocative or offensive statements, shake virtual hands, and move on with the debates we might have in an unarmed fashion.

As I have been doing, I promise to keep the peaceful track

My best regards to you!

You're singling out the wrong person. Regardless, singling people out isn't something we encourage here (and that goes for parties on both sides of the fence).

You're singling out the wrong person. Regardless, singling people out isn't something we encourage here (and that goes for parties on both sides of the fence).

Wait a minute. It was not the wrong person and I have been polite and courteous all the time with everyone. Even to some people who were not. The guy replied twice in hostile manners to the discussion I was part in. Instead of replying with aggression, I sincerely offered peace and courtesy (what of course had to be directed to him, but I guess quoting wouldn't have been saw as singling; my bad). And you find the space to lecture me instead of him?

I've been in the courtesy and politeness side of the fence and will remain there. Please, don't try to make it look otherwise. I will not let my arguments, which I try to always elaborate, as anyone can easily see, be diminished by undue reprimands. Instead, why not try to make sure everyone is in the same side of the non-hostile fence (not encouraging people to say that opinions are just for "personal satisfaction of self distinction and/or attention", would be a great start)? Count on me.

Heh, you misunderstand me. The second half of my statement wasn't really directed towards you at all. Unfortunately, I tend to do a pretty bad job of wording things at 4am. I'll try to explain it better in PM, so as not to further derail the thread. In the meantime, let's everybody cool it down a notch. No need to get upset.

As a artist, I used to show my unfinished work, my friends would ooh! and ahh! and say they couldn't wait to see the end result! When I showed them the completed piece, they were almost always disappointed. They'd ask me why I did that, or left out this, or how they thought I was going to add a tree/hill/goat here. They had mentally finished my painting months before I could finish it! They knew what the end product should look like. So one day, I stopped showing my unfinished art.... I don't give them the chance to 'finish it'. Now they (hopefully)ooh! and ahh! my finished work!

If I wanted to voice my displeasure at development process, I'm not going to let other forum members stop me. If I got yelled down, I'd yell all the louder. Do that. Just don't break the forum rules and you'll have just as much a right to be here as everyone else.

Grumblesaur wrote:

luniquekero wrote:The leap of faith stage.

Lorem ipsum ...

Your dissent is understandable, but I would encourage you to express it in a less passive-aggressive way.

Well that might result in a more ... active aggressive way then, be careful what you encourage.

For me despite everything the hype has definitely worn off. I stopped visiting the forums every day, I now do so maybe once a week or every two weeks. I guess as time passes without glimpses on new info where we stand this period in between will increase. While I always was with the people telling that the previous level of detail in updates and frequency was killing Josh alongside his working schedule (or lack thereof), I also do think not saying anything about the project is detrimental aswell. If not for Josh, at least for Limit Theory. Is there a way to have a middle ground? Or does it have to be an on/off switch? Just asking ...

It's at the Royal Albert Hall playing Funkytown on the trombone.

RedDwarfMinning wrote:one day, I stopped showing my unfinished art.... I don't give them the chance to 'finish it'. Now they (hopefully)ooh! and ahh! my finished work!

I'm assuming they hadn't helped pay to make that art via crowdfunding.

I understand what you mean, though. Artists who only listened to critics would never finish making anything.

LT, though, and games in general, and Kickstartered games in particular... these live at a complicated intersection between art and commerce. I do consider the creation of games to be an artistic expression, which means the creator's interests are important. But a game that's going to be licensed for the entertainment of other people, and especially one whose creation requires their money, means that the interests of consumers are important, too -- including their view that a great product now is more valuable than a perfect product later (which isn't true of pure art).

I generally don't get into these debates any more because Josh has made it clear he's going to do his thing at his speed, and there's no point in frustrating him or me by trying to change that. I'm commenting here, now, because I thought your point about games as art was interesting, and to extend that thought by noting that they're usually also commercial products... which means both the creator and consumers have a reasonable expectation that they will feel satisfied.

Making things is hard. Here's to those who don't give up.

Just don't break the forum rules and you'll have just as much a right to be here as everyone else

If that was for me, it's late to the party. I did not break any of the forum rules. On the contrary, I tried to invite people to courteous debate. As it was later acknowledged, the moderator only nodded us all just in case to prevent debates to escalate. What I will never take part in

As a artist, I used to show my unfinished work, my friends would ooh! and ahh! and say they couldn't wait to see the end result! When I showed them the completed piece, they were almost always disappointed. They'd ask me why I did that, or left out this, or how they thought I was going to add a tree/hill/goat here. They had mentally finished my painting months before I could finish it! They knew what the end product should look like. So one day, I stopped showing my unfinished art.... I don't give them the chance to 'finish it'. Now they (hopefully)ooh! and ahh! my finished work!

Don't agree it is the same situation. Giving eventual small lines of information on a funded work-in-progress indie game is not nearly the same. Your analogy would make sense to making a lot of videos of the game as josh did in the past or to letting people in fact download, install and play the game before it's finished (what, at the same time, in the game world is sometimes much appreciated for testing and tweaking). But even though, I loved the analogy between game and art and the reaction by Flatfingers. We should actually talk more often about that.

***

Anyway, an utility note for the ones that might drop by this thread before seeing the other one that is/was debating the same thing: Josh replied in the other one and, guess what, with updates about what he has been doing I guess it pays off not being condescending. It's important to politely complain when one think complain is due. I'm happy with the outcome of this.

charnode wrote:

Grumblesaur wrote:

luniquekero wrote:The leap of faith stage.

Lorem ipsum ...

Your dissent is understandable, but I would encourage you to express it in a less passive-aggressive way.

Well that might result in a more ... active aggressive way then, be careful what you encourage.

For me despite everything the hype has definitely worn off. I stopped visiting the forums every day, I now do so maybe once a week or every two weeks. I guess as time passes without glimpses on new info where we stand this period in between will increase. While I always was with the people telling that the previous level of detail in updates and frequency was killing Josh alongside his working schedule (or lack thereof), I also do think not saying anything about the project is detrimental aswell. If not for Josh, at least for Limit Theory. Is there a way to have a middle ground? Or does it have to be an on/off switch? Just asking ...

I know how you feel. I have been reading less and less of the posts on the forum because honestly at this point I'm only here for the community and REKT. The game is like a distant memory, even though I'd love to play it. I have faith in Josh, but faith can only go so far and my past experiences haven't helped.

Kimny wrote:Hyperion, you first told us who are making complains that we should get a life (or shift to our lives). Now you tell someone else that he/she is just looking for distinction and/or satisfaction. I politely invite you to stop doing such provocative or offensive statements, shake virtual hands, and move on with the debates we might have in an unarmed fashion.

As I have been doing, I promise to keep the peaceful track

My best regards to you!

...
I was just genuinely asking, but being that i'm in a fairly antagonistic mood this week/month/cycle of existence, I'll just say that if I had any intention of being hostile, it would be abundantly clear and indisputable, and I would very likely get a strong reprimand or temporary ban.

As to the state of LT, it is in a box with a radioactive source and a poison that will be released when the source unpredictably emits radiation, LT being considered to be simultaneously both dead and alive until the box is opened and the game revealed.

Hyperion wrote:

Kimny wrote:Hyperion, you first told us who are making complains that we should get a life (or shift to our lives). Now you tell someone else that he/she is just looking for distinction and/or satisfaction. I politely invite you to stop doing such provocative or offensive statements, shake virtual hands, and move on with the debates we might have in an unarmed fashion.

As I have been doing, I promise to keep the peaceful track

My best regards to you!

...
I was just genuinely asking, but being that i'm in a fairly antagonistic mood this week/month/cycle of existence, I'll just say that if I had any intention of being hostile, it would be abundantly clear and indisputable, and I would very likely get a strong reprimand or temporary ban.

As to the state of LT, it is in a box with a radioactive source and a poison that will be released when the source unpredictably emits radiation, LT being considered to be simultaneously both dead and alive until the box is opened and the game revealed.

Quoting Schrodinger's cat to explain LT. Brilliant.

Kimny wrote:

Just don't break the forum rules and you'll have just as much a right to be here as everyone else

If that was for me, it's late to the party. I did not break any of the forum rules. On the contrary, I tried to invite people to courteous debate. As it was later acknowledged, the moderator only nodded us all just in case to prevent debates to escalate. What I will never take part in

It was for you, but I didn't mean to imply you'd broken rules. I meant keep doing what you're doing, and don't be discouraged by attitude~