Ringu wrote:My contention is that Josh *did* make a legal contract to complete this project, and that after all this time, his sudden 180-degree in communication for what I consider to be a long time, is not acceptable in that framework. I see nothing to indicate that Josh is continuing in good faith to work on this project, nor do I see anything to suggest any problems in working on this project. If there were anything to see, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I think that after a period of time, compounded by the fact that Josh obviously doesn't know how to do this (as evidenced by the lateness and the many diversions, changes in strategy, etc), we must look at this sudden, massive turnaround in behaviour, and conclude that it means that Josh has failed.

Josh did not make a legal contract. Furthermore even if he had, which he hadn't you have no evidence to prove that he has stopped working or that the project isn't still going ahead. Even bringing this topic up is extremely premature. There are developers/companies that do not interact with their communities for months and at times years but they're still hard at work. Until you have solid concrete evidence that Josh has indeed stopped working and just decided to give up, there is absolutely no point even talking legal contracts. Even then, there isn't much point because you would not successfully litigate against him as you wouldn't be able to prove that he in fact did anything wrong or that he has even stopped working. A project taking longer than you want, or the developer going quiet is not grounds for litigation.

Furthermore this is exactly why I think this section of the forum should be locked down. As I outlined a few posts ago. People are acting irrational based on a shift of behavior from Josh that is perfectly reasonable if you remove the context of Josh's previous level of interaction.

fatmop wrote:Actually, I hadn't realized anyone was bringing this up to Kickstarter, but that's a great action to take. I don't have any money in the kickstarter, myself, so maybe that's why it hadn't occurred to me. Still, with most of the forum community coming to the consensus that this unforeseen total radio silence is unacceptable, appealing to the one power that might be able to get an answer out of him makes a lot of sense.

It sucks from a dev/community relationship standpoint that the community feels like it has to resort to "going over Josh's head" for answers, but for all of our peace of mind on the status of the game, it should help.

I don't believe kickstarter has any power at this stage, certainly can't strong arm him. Once the project finishes kickstarter and the money is given, it is no longer in kickstarters hands and they absolve their responsibility. I'm sad that people are reacting this way at all though given that he doesn't have to interact with us at all. That was not part of the kickstarter as far as I remember. It was a perk he personally decided to do out of his own time.

Ringu;

I personally believe Josh is in fact still working on LT. Myself and no one else here has any evidence that this is a fact. I only base it off what we know of Josh and how much effort he put into LT before being silent. It's possible that he has given up and is in hiding. The problem is we just don't know. Yes, a quick 10 minute post once a month would have cleared this up. The fact that he can't be bothered to even do this is disturbing. However, he is PROBALLY still working in LT.

I feel like I have repeated the above paragraph many, many times... So here is something else...

I am in a mood to be honest right now, so please forgive me if I cross any lines here.

I am starting to have some real concerns about our man Josh. To be honest I have been on earth for longer than most people here. I have dealt with many personality types of all sorts. I am no expert of course. I have no degree in the human mind. I have defended Josh in the past when I thought it was warranted. I have pointed out his development flaws that I perceived when needed.

Josh has always in the past been able to handle criticisms on the forum level. I would get annoyed at the people who, though may have had good intentions, would make a statement along the lines of "why would Josh want to post here with all the negativity". I would get annoyed because a) This place is not that negative b) Josh has been able to handle this in the past. I would always make a statement, that if Josh cannot handle this, then he is just in the wrong business. I always thought that Josh COULD handle this, so he was in the RIGHT business.

However, I am starting to wonder. Perhaps Josh is in the wrong business.

He seems to stress out really, really bad. He seems to be a massive perfectionist. Both of these together are not something a one man gaming team needs.

Almost all of the current issues here would have been solved with quick, posts. Posts that take normal people 10 minutes at most. Most people here would have taken Josh word that "I am still working on the game, really busy guys". Perhaps even, "I just finished some high level AI, looking good". There is no good reason NOT to do this. The only reason would be the Josh is just so hardwired with his perfectionism and his need to be ultra detailed that he just can't do this mentally.

How many people would have been perhaps only been following LT lightly have returned to this forum, saw all the posts wondering what happened to Josh and have written LT off as another failed KS project? The diehards like myself may believe that Josh is still working on the game, but even I don't know this for sure.

Josh will probably return here one day with beta in hand. (my moneys on mid May) There will be people who will be quick to point out that all the nay sayers have been wrong. Josh came through and it's all good. Perhaps in some ways they will be correct. I mean, in the end if we get the game we hope LT will be, what's the big deal?

When this time comes I will be happy, I won't be posting negative comments against Josh. We are here for the game, not the journey. (though I suspect some people are here for the journey.)

I will still wonder to myself however... so why no quick post in the months of silence letting us know you were still working?

TGS wrote: Furthermore this is exactly why I think this section of the forum should be locked down. As I outlined a few posts ago. People are acting irrational based on a shift of behavior from Josh that is perfectly reasonable if you remove the context of Josh's previous level of interaction.

I'm on the fence on this. For the regular posters this part of the forum has become a repetitive circular discussion. However, how will it look to the non-regular followers? This place already has "another failed kickstarter" written all over it. (not that I believe this is true, it just has the appearance of it) Lock it down, it will just scream failed. Yes, I am sure an admin would post a last detailed post explaining the lock down. However, no one here, not even the admins has gotten feedback from Josh. "We don't know what Josh is doing, chances are he is still working on the game, until he breaks his silence the general forum is locked" If I only came here once every 3 or 4 months, I would probably write LT off.

TSG wrote: I'm sad that people are reacting this way at all though given that he doesn't have to interact with us at all. That was not part of the kickstarter as far as I remember. It was a perk he personally decided to do out of his own time.

Josh does not have to interact with us at all. However, for someone who is the head and only employee of a business that public opinion is a major factor, it's usually a good move to have SOME sort of interaction. Yes, perhaps Josh spoiled people here for two years. However, going from that to nothing without any clear announced reasoning can be seen by some as an issue. Josh set the ground rules himself when he did his daily posts and posted his monthly/weekly updates. To just go silent without bothering to change these rules? I cannot blame some people for being at least somewhat annoyed or concerned.

Zanteogo wrote:I will still wonder to myself however... so why no quick post in the months of silence letting us know you were still working?

Well, we don't even know if Josh is aware of all this anxiety that is going on around here. We just know that he logged on his account for maybe a few minutes, but we don't know what he did or if he read this or any other post. People are presuming a lot of things, but we know very little.

Etsu wrote:

Zanteogo wrote:I will still wonder to myself however... so why no quick post in the months of silence letting us know you were still working?

Well, we don't even know if Josh is aware of all this anxiety that is going on around here. We just know that he logged on his account for maybe a few minutes, but we don't know what he did or if he read this or any other post. People are presuming a lot of things, but we know very little.

Basic common sense would dictate that if your ultra interactive with your community and declare a weekly update schedule, and just disappear for a comparatively lengthy time with no explanation, it's going to create "anxiety". (though I only use anxiety because you used it, I'm not sure it's the most accurate word to describe this place. "post Josh").

I don't buy into that Josh has no idea and his sudden disappearance was a completely innocent accidental move on his part, and that he did not foresee the resulting reaction.

Now, I would believe that he anticipated the reaction, and figured it would be justified with perhaps extra productivity and his mental well being.

However, then why not take the 10 minutes to do the quick post that, "I am still alive and LT is still being worked on! Soon guys!", or take and extra 10 minutes and do a very VERY brief summary of the current state of LT?

I think it's more probable his schedule has gotten him a burnout, and he still wants to continue, but cannot because of doctor's orders. His parents took him to some holdiay location without internet to get back to normal.

Thing is, Josh has always been a bit... eccentric when it comes to his working methods. Point in case.
My hunch is that he has a reason for all of this that may not make sense to us but does to him.
Not that I'm very happy about that, but not much I can do about that...

TGS wrote:

Ringu wrote:My contention is that Josh *did* make a legal contract

Josh did not make a legal contract.

If you are not a lawyer who has looked into this matter, your statement is meaningless; not to mention explicitly in disagreement with the KS terms; according to those, creators enter into a legal contract with KS in which amongst other things they agree to communicate with their backers, and provide an explanation and refunds to their backers if they cannot complete a project.

TGS wrote:I don't believe kickstarter has any power at this stage, certainly can't strong arm him. Once the project finishes kickstarter and the money is given, it is no longer in kickstarters hands and they absolve their responsibility. I'm sad that people are reacting this way at all though given that he doesn't have to interact with us at all. That was not part of the kickstarter as far as I remember. It was a perk he personally decided to do out of his own time.

As I said, that's explicitly not what the KS terms say.

Ringu wrote: provide an explanation and refunds to their backers if they cannot complete a project

And your statement is meaningless without the knowledge of whether or the not the project is ongoing.
It goes both ways, mate.

Ringu wrote:

TGS wrote:

Ringu wrote:My contention is that Josh *did* make a legal contract

Josh did not make a legal contract.

If you are not a lawyer who has looked into this matter, your statement is meaningless; not to mention explicitly in disagreement with the KS terms; according to those, creators enter into a legal contract with KS in which amongst other things they agree to communicate with their backers, and provide an explanation and refunds to their backers if they cannot complete a project.

TGS wrote:I don't believe kickstarter has any power at this stage, certainly can't strong arm him. Once the project finishes kickstarter and the money is given, it is no longer in kickstarters hands and they absolve their responsibility. I'm sad that people are reacting this way at all though given that he doesn't have to interact with us at all. That was not part of the kickstarter as far as I remember. It was a perk he personally decided to do out of his own time.

As I said, that's explicitly not what the KS terms say.

Yeah, the Kickstarter TOS say all that, but
a) you have no real concrete reason to say the project is dead (aside from a hunch you have, which is not proof) and
b) they say the creator must communicate with their fans, but fail to specify a concrete timeframe for this. 2 months is a while but not that long either, and most people here don't find this a reason to assume the project is dead yet. So legally speaking you have little to back you up at this point in time.

Zanteogo wrote:Josh will probably return here one day with beta in hand. (my moneys on mid May) There will be people who will be quick to point out that all the nay sayers have been wrong. Josh came through and it's all good. Perhaps in some ways they will be correct. I mean, in the end if we get the game we hope LT will be, what's the big deal?

I truly hope he does return, I wanna play in this universe!

Zanteogo wrote:When this time comes I will be happy, I won't be posting negative comments against Josh. We are here for the game, not the journey. (though I suspect some people are here for the journey.)

I will still wonder to myself however... so why no quick post in the months of silence letting us know you were still working?

That's exactly my opinion, although I hope to be able to get a reply from Josh himself rather than wondering to myself.

It just annoys me so much that it would be so trivial and take literally seconds of his time to get someone to post a message; we deserve better than this partly because he has our money and partly because we've all been so supportive of him and his flaws on this project, and mostly I feel strongly that he needs to understand that this is not just a vanity project he embarked on, he obtained a large amount of money and he has a responsibility towards us.

Idunno wrote:

Ringu wrote: provide an explanation and refunds to their backers if they cannot complete a project

And your statement is meaningless without the knowledge of whether or the not the project is ongoing.
It goes both ways, mate.

If I were just saying that he has entered a legal contract, I would 100% agree with you and wouldn't even bother posting
However, what I am saying is that the publicly viewable terms on KS explicitly corroborate my statements, and explicitly disprove your statements.

Ringu wrote: This is why the word "and" is so important - it means that you can't just take one item and use that to disprove the premise.
If it was only a year late, I wouldn't care - as indeed, I haven't been bothered. It's the combination of other factors that worry me.

To the other good folk talking about how elaborate the ruse would have to have been; my apologies for not being clear.
I've never thought that Josh started this project intending to fleece us. I'm fully aware of all the updates he made, and I've seen the progress (and the diversions) along with all of you.

My contention is that Josh *did* make a legal contract to complete this project, and that after all this time, his sudden 180-degree in communication for what I consider to be a long time, is not acceptable in that framework. I see nothing to indicate that Josh is continuing in good faith to work on this project, nor do I see anything to suggest any problems in working on this project. If there were anything to see, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I think that after a period of time, compounded by the fact that Josh obviously doesn't know how to do this (as evidenced by the lateness and the many diversions, changes in strategy, etc), we must look at this sudden, massive turnaround in behaviour, and conclude that it means that Josh has failed.

Let me point out a few things:

"My contention is that Josh *did* make a legal contract to complete this project, and that after all this time, his sudden 180-degree in communication for what I consider to be a long time, is not acceptable in that framework."

- For what YOU consider to be a long time (your opinion), then we jump to a seemingly factual statement stating that the above opinion is somehow now the standard framework that everyone should be using. Sorry, it is still based upon your opinion, which is fine for you, but it certainly needn't apply to everyone.



"I see nothing to indicate that Josh is continuing in good faith to work on this project, nor do I see anything to suggest any problems in working on this project. If there were anything to see, we wouldn't be having this conversation."

- How hard did you look? So you choose the argument from silence approach to justify your beliefs? Yeah, that's logical.



"I think that after a period of time, compounded by the fact that Josh obviously doesn't know how to do this (as evidenced by the lateness and the many diversions, changes in strategy, etc), we must look at this sudden, massive turnaround in behaviour, and conclude that it means that Josh has failed."

- So again, we start with your opinion, then we move to an assumption on your part, about how Josh "obviously," doesn't know how to do this, and then we are told we must conclude that Josh has failed all because of your opinion and assumptive reasoning. Laughable.


You know, I was going to go through this line by line, but your logic has so many holes in it that it would be painful to try, and besides, the rest is primarily sanctimonious drivel anyway. Your opinion is your own, but please, stop trying to sound like you are somehow the final authority on this whole situation.

Good luck and.......have a nice day.

Dinosawer wrote:a) you have no real concrete reason to say the project is dead (aside from a hunch you have, which is not proof)

I completely agree. Frankly, I don't believe proof of a negative like this is possible; so we have to look at the factors and use logic and experience to decide.

b) they say the creator must communicate with their fans, but fail to specify a concrete timeframe for this. 2 months is a while but not that long either, and most people here don't find this a reason to assume the project is dead yet. So legally speaking you have little to back you up at this point in time.

It's almost three months, but I do feel that the time is a very subjective point. Also, when taking the other factors into consideration, like Josh's prolific communication beforehand and his stated weekly update plans, this represents a major shift in attitude if not direction on Josh's part, and you can see that shift as meaning "he's getting on with things" (which he's previously done, but never gone silent), or as "he's failed/given up/paused indefinitely/run away with our money/etc".
Clearly, there's no possible way of legally agreeing that Josh must finish the game - that's obviously meaningless, couldn't possibly work, etc. So I'm investigating other legal avenues; if Josh is legally bound to communicate and then he breaks his own rules and these legal terms, then maybe I can use that to confront him and let him know that he has a responsibility that he's not living up to.

He has Josh's communication precedents up 'til February and his sudden disappearance. Josh established a pattern for communication then pretty clearly broke it, which I'd say qualifies as a reason for KS to be suspicious. Didn't he already say KS would reach out to Josh anyway? I don't think it would hurt matters for them to nudge him about communicating with his backers.

As for the latest post (of which several seem to be happening while I'm typing, so forgive me), yeah, Josh's pattern of consistent engagement was established. It's not a matter of opinion to state that going silent for ~2 months is breaking that pattern. I don't think Ringu is arguing that he has necessarily abandoned the project, but I do think he's doing the prudent thing both for his own sanity and for Josh's financial obligations: contacting the one source of legal pressure that exists for this project, and seeing if they can help.