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Re: Fans, a blessing and a curse

#31
Flatfingers wrote:Not to speak for Vartul, but I would note that in practice it's almost always easier to criticize than to praise.
That really depends on the use of the word criticize. Actual criticism involves explaining why things aren't good enough and proposing ways to improve them. That's more effort than saying it looks good. Even at the most basic level, searching for faults requires more effort than passing over them.
Last edited by Katawa on Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
woops, my bad, everything & anything actually means specific and conformed
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Re: Fans, a blessing and a curse

#32
Poet1960 wrote:Why do people feel the need to add other elements or qualifiers to the statement. Why can't they just let it stand as it is?
Because it's posted to a discussion forum, rather than to a personal blog?

I apologize if I'm being thick-headed and missing your point. Certainly I don't have much interest in belaboring replies to a comment someone posts, but posting an opinion as a public statement on a discussion forum is, I think it's fair to say, an invitation to discussion.

If the intent is to say something on which no debate is to be permitted, there are better venues for that, no?
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Re: Fans, a blessing and a curse

#33
By all means, discuss away. I am just examining the thought process and mechanics of how things tend to flow. It's not directed at you personally btw, so no need to apologize.

EDIT:

I'm not questioning people, I'm questioning the the thought processes that we all seem to exhibit, including myself.
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
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Re: Fans, a blessing and a curse

#35
You actually haven't been so clear about your point (or philosophical standpoint, at least), as far as I'm concerned. But I get the idea that ultimately expect that we should have something like reservations about getting invested in something as "trivial" as a game and / or be reserved about interfering with an artist's proper vision?

Yes, people have emotional investments in their hobbies, and be they games. It's not really something that you can simplify to "living in" a fantasy world. Even hobbies that don't have any fantasy worlds invite the same kind of passion. It's not about living anywhere, it's just that Hobbies aren't actually trivial to people. And then I'm not seeing how we as social animals wouldn't discuss them passionately, either.

Perhaps many are like me, also not seeing this as primarily a work of Josh's "expression as an artist" as such. To people like me, this is more a work of engineering and design. Something that invites critique and praise for it's technical merits and good looks and interesting concepts as a documented project leading up to a product right now. And later -hopefully- also praise for the interesting challenges and possible interactions it has, as a game. Or perhaps critique for the absence of those. It's kind of an engineer/designer<->customer(s) relationship thing, no?

Hyperion wrote:Semi-Related
Many examples that are extremely weakly related to any continuous line of thought, avoiding more or less any specific conclusions and statements... I feel it's a little thin on logic. Actually, it really tells me just about nothing. Of course, my school teachers liked this kind of treatise, so it stands to reason that someone here might, too.

If you liked the text: No offence intended to you personally. Just a bit of a warning to people like me, eh.
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Re: Fans, a blessing and a curse

#36
No, I don't actually like analyses like that, I intended it more to show a way of thinking this thread reminds me of. Sociology and the like are in my opinion a dubious foray; as likely to be colored by ones own perceptions and judgments as to reveal anything about what is being observed. That this thread is moving towards abstraction of the original question, just reminds me of where it can lead.

That said, people like to talk. People especially like to talk when they know someone is listening. People very especially like to talk when they know someone is listening and may change their behavior in response to what is said. People VERY VERY especially like to talk when doing so may alter the world to better satisfy their needs and desires. So they talk, so we talk. The restraint anyone shows in talking when it may change the world to better suit their desires is a result of some other psychological function telling them it is better to be silent than to speak up. I am of course being hypocritical as per the above paragraph, but then again, I don't really care and am talking for the sake of talking, even though I am typing. :lol:


Why I am here? Josh and his project fascinate me, that it fascinates thousands of others who also may want to say something isn't something I consider before I speak.
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Challenging your assumptions is good for your health, good for your business, and good for your future. Stay skeptical but never undervalue the importance of a new and unfamiliar perspective.
Imagination Fertilizer
Beauty may not save the world, but it's the only thing that can
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Re: Fans, a blessing and a curse

#37
Here is an example of what I am getting at. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3544

Just to be clear I am only examining motives etc.

So, here we have an example of someone expressing concerns. Okay, that's fine. Now, think about what the motives are, what the driving force is. I think we all want this game to be released as soon as possible, but think about that. WHO are we trying to please? Ourselves. We are being selfish, we want it NOW.

This is what I am talking about when I say people taking or assuming possession of the game. We second guess Josh and what he may or may not be doing. It seems to mostly stem from our own desire to get the game in our hot little hands as soon as possible, which is fine for the most part. Eagerness is a good thing in general, but when, in our eagerness to acquire the game, we start trying to dictate the terms or direction of development merely to satisfy our own desires as quickly as possible, it may start to border on the intrusive side. Even dictate is probably a little too harsh a word, influence may perhaps be better, but again, I am talking about the actual motivations, that may be worded softer than really felt.

Josh can hardly post a thing without having some huge debate erupting over what he meant or said. Most of it is just people killing time and having fun while they wait for the game to be done, but I sometimes wonder how much of this stuff really boils down to, I want, I want, I want.

I'm trying to point this out without offending anyone but I'm not so sure I have succeeded. I guess the short version is, in our eagerness to help, we may sometimes overstep the boundary between dev and helper.
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
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Re: Fans, a blessing and a curse

#38
Personally I think your interpretation is a bit short sighted.

If someone expresses a concern, it doesn't mean they're trying to take possession of the game and want to play it already.
It might just be that they're not getting the information they need.

Suppose you're on a train ride, you got on the train somewhere, and you're not really sure where it's going. You're looking at the scenery and wonder where you are, but all the conductor talks about is how fast the train is moving and how much coal is being burned.
Why wouldn't you, as a traveller on this journey, ask a question like "where are we?", or "Do you know when or where the next stop is?".

Being on this forum is as much about Limit Theory, as it is about the people that make up the core posters. It's about people getting to know each other, while following a common interest. I very much see it as being together on a big train, heading to an unknown destination. And I really think it's everybody's right, and perhaps even responsibility, to ask the conductor some questions.

The situation is different when demands are being made. But so far I haven't really noticed that on this forum.
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
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Re: Fans, a blessing and a curse

#39
Katorone wrote:Personally I think your interpretation is a bit short sighted.

If someone expresses a concern, it doesn't mean they're trying to take possession of the game and want to play it already.
It might just be that they're not getting the information they need.

Suppose you're on a train ride, you got on the train somewhere, and you're not really sure where it's going. You're looking at the scenery and wonder where you are, but all the conductor talks about is how fast the train is moving and how much coal is being burned.
Why wouldn't you, as a traveller on this journey, ask a question like "where are we?", or "Do you know when or where the next stop is?".

Being on this forum is as much about Limit Theory, as it is about the people that make up the core posters. It's about people getting to know each other, while following a common interest. I very much see it as being together on a big train, heading to an unknown destination. And I really think it's everybody's right, and perhaps even responsibility, to ask the conductor some questions.

The situation is different when demands are being made. But so far I haven't really noticed that on this forum.
Sure, but look at the main purpose. Why did you get on the train? To go from one point to your destination. Do you trust the engineer to get you to your destination or don't you? What if there is something on the tracks that delays the final destination time? Do you still trust the engineer to get you there despite possible delays?

The whole point of being on the train in the first place is to go from where you were, to where you want to be. You know where you want to go. You certainly can ask about what's happening on the way there if you want to, but the main concern is getting there, everything else is pretty much "scenery."
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
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Re: Fans, a blessing and a curse

#40
No.

The point of getting on the train is to enjoy the ride. We don't know where we're going. We know the general direction, the kickstarter pitch and the updates.
To LT specifically, can we be blamed to be curious about how the current development fits into the grand plan? Mind you, I'm not claiming I deserve to know the grand plan, that would be claiming ownership. No, I'm only saying I'm curious about it.

Edmozley speaks from his experience and asks questions from his point of view about the state of development. He's not telling Josh how to do anything, he's just trying to contribute with honest advice and a critical mind.
Pretty much the same as you're trying to do in this topic. Other than you're directed to the community, but to what purpose, I have to wonder.

I don't think blind trust ever served anybody well. Even Josh will admit that the critical remarks or suggestions of his fans guided LT's development in unforeseen ways.

I think that you're missing out if you just want to "get there" and everything else is considered scenery. Hasn't anyone told you that the journey is more important than the destination? If you truly think that only the destination is of importance, then what's stopping you from checking back in a few months to see if we're there yet?
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
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Re: Fans, a blessing and a curse

#41
Do you get on a train merely to enjoy the scenery? No. You have a purpose. You want to go from point A to point B. Blind trust? Why is the engineer driving the train? I guess it's just blind trust that allows you to not crash at the next bend in the tracks, and not that it's his JOB to drive the train because of his skills.

What is the gist of that OP? Time. Sure, there is some great advice or insight in that post, but the main concern seems to be he wants to see what he considers progress. He seems to want tangible, visual verification that progress is being made. That's what I get out of it. I can understand it, I would love to see some stuff too. On the other hand, I also understand the creative process. There are sometimes things that must be done in the proper order that may not show up with flashy, colorful panache.

I don't want to, "just get there," but that is the main purpose of getting on the train in the first place. You may not know where you're going, but I do, and so does Josh I believe. Mostly it seems like someone is worried that the train isn't moving, because the scenery isn't going by fast enough, or that there isn't enough of it.
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
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Re: Fans, a blessing and a curse

#42
Poet1960 wrote: Josh can hardly post a thing without having some huge debate erupting over what he meant or said. Most of it is just people killing time and having fun while they wait for the game to be done, but I sometimes wonder how much of this stuff really boils down to, I want, I want, I want.
So? We're sometimes salivating, it's a thing animals do when they see something they really want. How is this harmful? No one has made flat out demands, and everyone knows damn well that they can beg and plead all they want and it guarantees nothing. In that sense, making LT so moddable, is Josh's answer to all the salivating "I want. I want! I WANT! AND I WANT IT IN WOOD TONES WITH FANCY APPLE MINIMALIST STYLING AND HOW ABOUT SOME LEATHER!" Josh knows he simply cannot possibly satisfy every single thing that anyone will want out of his game, so in making it so that we can all go in an make our own changes and additions to just about everything, he relieves himself of any of those burdens, and can make his game as he wants it to be, giving us the tools to do the same.

Of course, no one has been exceptionally rude about this, even if some of us take the "Hey look, did you see this idea I like? It's really cool! No Really, It would be awesome. I'm serious, it will make the game so much better. I just want to make sure you saw it, in case you missed it, I know you're busy and all, but I just wanted you to see it. It would be a really cool addition." approach. This isn't really a bad thing, it might be a bit annoying like a fly in the ear, but Josh could very easily type two letters and the pestering would stop dead (and probably move onto "Ok, how can we mod it in?"). Just take the Pareidolic icons, Well before Josh made any such mention of them in the devlogs, everyone was already going "If he doesn't put it in, we will do it ourselves" And I am sure the same feeling exists, if maybe not as verbally for a large number of suggestions made here. I am quite sure Thymine is still tinkering away at plans for how to implement his H-Drive mechanics and Wormhole types and any number of things.

We have hopped on this hype train for different reasons. Yes, some of us just want to get to the end, where we are playing; my suggestion to these people is to go do something else for a few months, come back and it will be magically done. Some people only want to be here for the ride, and may not even play the game at all, they just enjoy the discussions and theorycrafting. Some people come here for shits and giggles, others come to show off, others still come to feel horrible about how they have wasted their lives... None of these are bad reasons for being here, and I don't really get why you are making a big deal out of it.
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Challenging your assumptions is good for your health, good for your business, and good for your future. Stay skeptical but never undervalue the importance of a new and unfamiliar perspective.
Imagination Fertilizer
Beauty may not save the world, but it's the only thing that can
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Re: Fans, a blessing and a curse

#43
I'll tell ya why. Because I am selfish too. I want this game to be all it can be. Hmm, did I just do a commercial for the army? Anyway, there can often be subtle influences on people due to things like peer pressure. I want the game as quick as anyone else, but I have patience and can wait until he thinks it's done.

When I see what appears to me, like people pushing him to get things done faster, I get worried. He has the freedom to go at his own pace at this point in time, because he is his own boss, that may change in the future. When I see things like people pushing him, or trying to force a deadline on him, it bugs me. When has that kind of thing ever really been any good in the long run?

I personally, don't want this game to be another egosoft. We had to push it out... blah blah blah. Josh is his own boss for the time being, he should use it to full advantage, because WE will be the ones who benefit.

See? I'm selfish too, and I can admit it.
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
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Re: Fans, a blessing and a curse

#44
Where did anyone say he isn't his own boss? He's under no obligation do anything we say, he could have steered his course to release it back in march with much poorer graphics, much less complexity, but still not bad for a first attempt by a single developer. He chose his current path not because of anything the community said, but because he wanted to and he had the resources to do it. It appears in the retrospect of someone not Josh, that every single delay boiled down to the thought "I can do better, I just need more time." I really don't think Josh is doing much of anything out of some selfless desire to please us, but is as selfish as the rest of us and he wants the game more than anyone. His is the loudest "I WANT!" of them all.

He is his own harshest taskmaster, and while we may offer up ideas and express our concerns, and he may notice them and embrace the ideas he likes, ignore the ones he doesn't, and take our concerns to heart or lament that we simply can't see the real progress he is making, it is ultimately done by Josh for Josh.
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Challenging your assumptions is good for your health, good for your business, and good for your future. Stay skeptical but never undervalue the importance of a new and unfamiliar perspective.
Imagination Fertilizer
Beauty may not save the world, but it's the only thing that can
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Re: Fans, a blessing and a curse

#45
That's all true, but I fear you may be underestimating the impact of peer pressure. Whether you understand it or not, WE have more impact on him than you might think, or even he thinks. Partly it depends on the strength of his personality, but I don't think I've ever met a human that was completely immune to peer pressure.

We exert pressure on him. Don't you see that? Sure he is doing what he wants to do, but at the same time, he knows we are all here because we like what we see, and he wants at least to some degree, to gain some validation from us about what he is doing. It's always a nice feeling to know people agree with you.

Suggestions and ideas are a different matter, not the same. While it is true he is under no obligation to do anything we say, he still considers what we say and it has an impact. Whether he acts on that is another matter, but it still impacts him. If enough people express "concerns" about things taking too long, is it possible he may leave out something that would have been awesome even though it may not have added much dev time?

Nobody said he isn't his own boss, but if someone besides himself tries to impose a time constraint on him, or hurry production, what would you call that? I was pointing out that he should take full advantage of being his own boss by taking his time and doing it right.
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

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