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Re: The Secret Life of Chaos

#91
Surface Reflection wrote:Ok, so... what we call second law of thermodynamics is a part of the larger process.

That process is change. Everything changes in this universe. Nothing remains the same. But it doesnt change in any random direction. It has a "direction".

And that direction is increase in complexity. Everything in this universe is getting more and more complex. Every single thing you can think of. The Universe itself came from a point of ultimate simplicity. First there was only energy spreading after the big bang, then that energy coalesced into first subatomic particles - then into atoms - which then created galaxies and planets and first simple life forms that differentiated into all life forms we know about today and into animals and people and these forums right here and Josh who is hard at work in creating something more beautiful and complex then there was before.
He keeps adding more and more stuff to it. There is more different kinds of ships, more systems, more stuff to do and explore etc, etc etc. The basic idea of procedural creation of content that the game is built upon is - increase in complexity - but not in just any random direction. right?

Stop. Step back, take a wide view.

Humans often tend to talk about chaos and order. We try to simplify nature into two extremes. Chaos is bad and order is good. As if those are two separate different things. One bad, another good. We also have these ideas of evil and good. Also simplified extremes that we rarely see in reality which is always more complex then that.

We would like to keep this "order" and make it eternal and we would like the "chaos" to stop, because its like "bad".
But that "order" is nothing but attempt to make things simpler, less complex, less changeable. Static. It never worked and never will. No empire lasted eternal, no matter how powerful, never will.
And who are the "greatest evils" in our history? Who caused greatest wars and greatest suffering? Those who tried to simplify things by force. Nazis, faschists, racists, religious nazis, all those who wished and wish for an extreme of simplification. All in a struggle against Universe itself.

Nothing is static. Everything changes and everything changes in such a way that its becoming more and more complex.

Take a look at any illustration of the evolution of the universe. What do you see?

Things are not becoming simpler.

Try to come up with any single thing thats becoming simpler.. Our knowledge? Language? Everyday life? Clothes we wear? Food we eat? Religion? Technology? Industry - any industry? Any branch of science? Astronomy? How about them extra solar planets Kepler discovered? Are those solar sytsems all the same, simple, or each more and more different and complex then we ever imagine before? Do our relationships become simpler or more complex with time? First its only you, then there is someone you love and suddenly there are these new creatures being created out of you two who are at first small and very simple but then become more and more demanding and complex.


There are more details to it but... do you catch my drift?

Chaos is good, order is evil. Down with Baator scum!!

8-)
Humans don't want order. They want control. Control and order are two entirely separate things. You can find order in chaos. Order can be perceived as patterns within chaos. What most humans want is control. They don't care if there is or isn't a pattern, they want to be able to control it until it is the pattern they want. Some people seek to create chaos, that is their control. Others wish to subdue chaos by creating a pattern, so long as it is a pattern they dictate. We all do it to varying degrees. Our life is spent in a perpetual attempt of controlling that which exists around us. We all do it in different ways. One kid might put things together in a nice orderly fashion, another might destroy it yet they are both exercising the same force. Control.

One might say the universe exerts the same force. Or is it the universe? Is it a supreme being? Is it divine? Who knows, but we can all see very plainly that there is control in the universe. Forces that form patterns and thus order in an otherwise chaotic existence. Yet the force never truly prevails, as the universe still exists in chaos. Chaos with purpose perhaps. I have no watched the video but I have often pondered such things on my own so I might give it a go.
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Re: The Secret Life of Chaos

#92
Rubbish, my dear baatorian. Your language is not correctly aligned.

The control you speak of is an attempt to make things simpler, more "orderly", unchangeable, less complex. Thats how you try to control something. And fail. And then it goes into attempts to eradicate whatever you dont like. To make things less complex - so you could control them.

The "order" is a fantasy born out of human misunderstanding of natural processes. And humans so do want that order. Its in everyones minds. Its the general paradigm of our civilization at this moment, a cultural point. Nobody can stop speaking about it, even this long after chaos theory was born.

Watch the movie, its quite good.
I did not know it was Alan Turing that started it all. And they wanted to make him less complex, to control his "deviation" to make him more "orderly"- which lead to a tragedy and a loss of a great mind.


-
what i am saying is not based on that movie. im just watching it for the first time right now as we speak.
Last edited by Surface Reflection on Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Secret Life of Chaos

#93
Surface Reflection wrote:The control you speak of is an attempt to make things simpler, more "orderly", unchangeable, less complex. Thats how you try to control something. And fail. And then it goes into attempts to eradicate whatever you dont like. To make things less complex - so you could control them.
How would you explain the kid that creates disorder and chaos then? My perception is that Order is a lack of Chaos, and Chaos is a lack of Order. No more, no less. Control is something else entirely. The why someone tries to control is not particularly relevant. Yes the majority of humans try to control to create order, but many do it to create disorder. The fundamental principal behind it is that they are in control. They are the ones creating the outcome. The reason I bring this up is that such a force is not strictly human, nor is it even strictly conscious. There are controlling forces in the universe that exist without conscious (Unless you believe in a higher/supreme being aka God)
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Re: The Secret Life of Chaos

#94
You are disrupting me watching the movie man. Thats really unorderly.

That kid in your simple example? You started from looking at it from the completely wrong point. You cant take out one small section of it and proclaim that is order and the other is chaotic.
They both were a part of greater increase in complexity.

Its the overall increase in complexity that really matters. It cant all be bloody orderly, it has to have chaos as a part of it.

If the first kid and his creation were left alone - it would be a less complex thing overall then the final result when the other kid tore it all down. It was a perfect example of how things cannot remain orderly.
Besides, the kid who built the thing can remember it and built it again. And again, and better and stronger so the other one cannot knock it down. Who knows where it can lead.

What do you really mean by control? Ask yourself: How can you achieve control over anything if you let it get more and more complex as everything does? How? You cant. You must try and exert some force and try to make it less complex.

And get this:
If you have all those kids toys, lets call them lego blocks on the ground, which version is more complex? All of the legos just thrown on the floor, or some arranged into some specific form by kid 1 and the rest on the floor? If ten kids go into that room and make ten different structures out of those lego blocks is that less or more chaotic then if nobody goes into the room and all the legoes remain on the floor, not moving?

You are incorrectly applying the terms chaos and order to that picture.
And that happens because humans have a very limited and short sided view of things.


I think you are close to thinking about it as i do, really, but you are using different semantics to describe it, which are not really correct, so it leads you astray.
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Re: The Secret Life of Chaos

#95
Surface Reflection wrote:You are disrupting me watching the movie man. Thats really unorderly.

That kid in your simple example? You started from looking at it from the completely wrong point. You cant take out one small section of it and proclaim that is order and the other is chaotic.
They both were a part of greater increase in complexity.

Its the overall increase in complexity that really matters. It cant all be bloody orderly, it has to have chaos as a part of it.

If the first kid and his creation were left alone - it would be a less complex thing overall then the final result when the other kid tore it all down. It was a perfect example of how things cannot remain orderly.
Besides, the kid who built the thing can remember it and built it again. And again, and better and stronger so the other one cannot knock it down. Who knows where it can lead.

What do you really mean by control? Ask yourself: How can you achieve control over anything if you let it get more and more complex as everything does? How? You cant. You must try and exert some force and try to make it less complex.

And get this:
If you have all those kids toys, lets call them lego blocks on the ground, which version is more complex? All of the legos just thrown on the floor, or some arranged into some specific form by kid 1 and the rest on the floor? If ten kids go into that room and make ten different structures out of those lego blocks is that less or more chaotic then if nobody goes into the room and all the legoes remain on the floor, not moving?

You are incorrectly applying the terms chaos and order to that picture.
And that happens because humans have a very limited and short sided view of things.


I think you are close to thinking about it as i do, really, but you are using different semantics to describe it, which are not really correct, so it leads you astray.
One of us is trying to look at it from a largely philosophical point of view, the other is not. I leave you to decide which of us is which.
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Re: The Secret Life of Chaos

#96
There is no need to quote my whole post for every answer.
And there is no need for strawman arguments and declaratory statements while you completely refuse to even consider something that seems different from your point of view.

Here is a better example for you, using that same situation.

If the kid1 creation was allowed to stay as it was, and never torn down there would be less pieces for other kids to play with, correct? If he would come tomorrow and build another such arrangement, there would be even less free ones for others to play with, correct? if he was allowed to do the same with the rest of the toys he would make a finite number of such kid "sculptures" - correct?
Lets say the most he could make is a dozen different forms.

There would be none for other kids to play with. And we will never see what other kids would create. All those possible shapes and forms would be lost, prevented from ever existing.

Is then this order the kid1 achieved good? Is then the kid2 that knocks them down and increases chaos bad?
Even worse... how do you know its the "control" the kid2 wanted? Youre implying you know what a hypothetical kid is thinking. What if he just didnt like it? What if he didnt want to come there and see that sculpture kid1 made every day for the rest of his life?

and didnt the kid1 really want to control the situation? Make it static, unchanging?
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Re: The Secret Life of Chaos

#97
As far as I'm concerned this discussion has reached it's end. I do not see an argument. Merely a difference of view. I don't recall disagreeing with or denouncing your point of view. Merely providing my own. Isn't that what a discussion is?

Furthermore I think you might be taking it just a wee bit too seriously.
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Re: The Secret Life of Chaos

#99
This is exactly why the discussion ended. You have become hostile and confrontational. I'm more than willing to discuss, not argue. I'm not here to argue. I'm not here to dispute your view. We do not need a great philosophical enlightenment to discuss the topic. My entire addition to the topic was the addition of a specific facet that contravenes both chaos and order. I don't disagree with you at all. In fact quite the opposite, I just look at it through a different lens yet your reaction is to imply then straight up say that I'm limited in my thinking? How quaint.

More than happy to continue when the oppositional attitude ceases.
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Re: The Secret Life of Chaos

#100
Stop dishing ad hominems, while trying to accuse me of some sort of emotional reaction, which is really pathetic and laughable - and answer the question stated above.

Discussion did not end, btw, you are just trying to move it away to another goal post while also using ad hominems.
It is you who has to get rid of oppositional attitude.

Leave it aside and just think about that simplistic two kids and lego blocks situation.
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Re: The Secret Life of Chaos

#101
Surface Reflection wrote:Stop dishing ad hominems, while trying to accuse me of some sort of emotional reaction, which is really pathetic and laughable - and answer the question stated above.

Discussion did not end, btw, you are just trying to move it away to another goal post while also using ad hominems.
It is you who has to get rid of oppositional attitude.

Leave it aside and just think about that simplistic two kids and lego blocks situation.
Your repeated statements of me being limited, pathetic and laughable would suggest an emotional reaction. I think the topic is very interesting, but I'm not going to continue discussing it with someone who insists on trying to hurl insults, then when fronted on it tries to turn it around. One might suggest that you are trying to create chaos.
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Re: The Secret Life of Chaos

#103
Idunno wrote:
TGS wrote: One might suggest that you are trying to create chaos.
Who isn't? :think:
Myself, depending on the day. Generally I like most humans avoid chaos. Though I'd go one step further and say I avoid chaos for the sake of chaos. As chaos can exist in many forms and perceptions of form for that matter. That's where it becomes more of a philosophical point than a literal one. I try to think literally which is why I used the examples I used before.

We all see through a lens, the lens of human perception. To think yourself above this is ego imo. This is why I try to avoid unnecessary conflict. While I enjoy a good argument here and there I do not like arguing matters of perception. Discussing them on the other hand is quite fun. I dislike the idea that Order or Chaos is "good or bad" because both are neither.
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Re: The Secret Life of Chaos

#104
TGS wrote:
Idunno wrote:
TGS wrote: One might suggest that you are trying to create chaos.
Who isn't? :think:
Myself, depending on the day. Generally I like most humans avoid chaos. Though I'd go one step further and say I avoid chaos for the sake of chaos. As chaos can exist in many forms and perceptions of form for that matter. That's where it becomes more of a philosophical point than a literal one. I try to think literally which is why I used the examples I used before.

We all see through a lens, the lens of human perception. To think yourself above this is ego imo. This is why I try to avoid unnecessary conflict. While I enjoy a good argument here and there I do not like arguing matters of perception. Discussing them on the other hand is quite fun. I dislike the idea that Order or Chaos is "good or bad" because both are neither.
There is no method to avoid chaos, in any form. :P

Draw a line on a sheet of paper. No matter how straight the line is, it is still a disturbance upon the surface of the paper. And the paper is a disturbance upon the table. And the table is a disturbance upon the room. And the room is a disturbance within the building. And the building is a disturbance resting on the plot of land. And the plot of land is disturbance upon the continent. And the continent is a disturbance on the planet. And the planet is disturbance in the galaxy. And the galaxy's twisting and turning eddies are a disturbance upon the universe. And the universe is one big chaotic swirl. :twisted:

There is no way to avoid chaos. Chaos is contained within every action preformed. Whenever energy is involved, chaos comes along for the ride. :shh: :ghost:
Image The results of logic, of natural progression? Boring! An expected result? Dull! An obvious next step? Pfui! Where is the fun in that? A dream may soothe, but our nightmares make us run!
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Re: The Secret Life of Chaos

#105
TGS wrote:
Surface Reflection wrote:Stop dishing ad hominems, while trying to accuse me of some sort of emotional reaction, which is really pathetic and laughable - and answer the question stated above.

Discussion did not end, btw, you are just trying to move it away to another goal post while also using ad hominems.
It is you who has to get rid of oppositional attitude.

Leave it aside and just think about that simplistic two kids and lego blocks situation.
Your repeated statements of me being limited, pathetic and laughable would suggest an emotional reaction. I think the topic is very interesting, but I'm not going to continue discussing it with someone who insists on trying to hurl insults, then when fronted on it tries to turn it around. One might suggest that you are trying to create chaos.
Not really, hombre. I said your refusal to even think about the situation you yourself presented wrongly is an example of human limits. Obviously.
It was you who refused to continue discussing matters - then i called that limited. Not the opposite.

And you are pathetic because you are trying to imply an emotional response, which is a strawman argument, and because you keep using ad hominems, repeated even after i told you to cut it out, while it is you who is reacting emotionally and refusing to think. You just shifted your goal post and you are pathetically trying to hold onto it - WHILE STILL REFUSING TO THINK or answer very simple questions. That is actually pathetic. Its not any kind of insult.

There is nothing philosophical about any of that. Its not really enough to say "thats philosophical".


There is only your laughable attempt to to somehow avoid admitting you were wrong.

The example you yourself proposed is very simple, two kids, one builds stuff, another knocks it down. Answer it and leave personal fallacies aside.

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