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Re: Should mods be free?

#271
DigitalDuck wrote:
Scytale wrote:One of the reasons I want to avoid participating in active and semicontroversial discussions for too long is that no matter how nice the community is, people still don't actually read what's being said. About once every month or two I take a deep breath and give it a shot, and then pretty much end up regretting it.
I blunder in every single time.

I HAVE NO REGRETS

:mrgreen:
"What? I didn't hear you, I'll just respond to what I assume you said rather than what you actually said! :ghost: " (not directed at you =P )

Well Duck, I admire you for your persistence =P Maybe I'll get some of it by osmosis through the forum
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Re: Should mods be free?

#272
DigitalDuck wrote:
Kichae Chandramani wrote:Those seem like strawmen to me. Most mods don't ship with the original engine or original game files. Those that do are generally in breach of copyright, and of their end-user license. You need to have a distribution license in order to re-distribute the original game files, in whole or in part.
... I'm fairly sure the point of the discussion is that, given the license to do so, should mod creators sell mods?

Alternatively, should mod creators be given the license to sell mods?

Obviously you can't monetise without the license to do so. There wouldn't be a discussion if we were talking about that.
That was sort of my way of saying the discussion seems meaningless, because there's nothing that prevents someone from charging for original work, and there are lots of things that prevent someone for charging for somebody else's. None of the suggestions or examples that I've seen here in one way or the other make any sense, because they're built on top of a silly premise.

If no original game files are included, and technology that includes a no-sale license isn't used to create the original content, a license isn't required to sell the mod.
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Re: Should mods be free?

#273
Scytale wrote:
"What? I didn't hear you, I'll just respond to what I assume you said rather than what you actually said! :ghost: " (not directed at you =P )

Well Duck, I admire you for your persistence =P Maybe I'll get some of it by osmosis through the forum
Just think to yourself "If I make 11 more constructive posts, than I get to play as an AC130 for 90 seconds." That should be more than enough to get you through. 15 more lets you use a tactical nuke. :lol:

Seriously though, a forum "patience streak" counter that works like a rep system, and lets you place limited use gifs of CoD killstreaks would be good fun. :mrgreen:

Kichae Chandramani wrote:
DigitalDuck wrote:
Kichae Chandramani wrote:Those seem like strawmen to me. Most mods don't ship with the original engine or original game files. Those that do are generally in breach of copyright, and of their end-user license. You need to have a distribution license in order to re-distribute the original game files, in whole or in part.
... I'm fairly sure the point of the discussion is that, given the license to do so, should mod creators sell mods?

Alternatively, should mod creators be given the license to sell mods?

Obviously you can't monetise without the license to do so. There wouldn't be a discussion if we were talking about that.
That was sort of my way of saying the discussion seems meaningless, because there's nothing that prevents someone from charging for original work, and there are lots of things that prevent someone for charging for somebody else's. None of the suggestions or examples that I've seen here in one way or the other make any sense, because they're built on top of a silly premise.

If no original game files are included, and technology that includes a no-sale license isn't used to create the original content, a license isn't required to sell the mod.
Yeah, there isn't technically anything stopping one from selling a mod right now. I think the debate is over whether or not it should be officially sanctioned, and helped along (like Surface's "Josh Pack" [mod pack, trying to be creative with names]) and viewed as at least "okay form". Then there is the debate about if selling mods should be a thing general. I think. I have gotten confused my self over what exactly we are discussing. As far as I can make out, there are at least two debates going on, but there might be more. ;)
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Re: Should mods be free?

#274
Surface Reflection, assuming you actually blocked me as you said in your above post, you wont be able to read this. (as I have never blocked anyone I don't how it actually shows)

I don't know what your issue is guy, I have tried to be nice as some others have. We have responded to your suggestion, and your counters but you keep just getting more angry and responding that we aren't reading what you said.

It's possible that some people just don't agree with you on this. Despite what you think, most people here can read and really do understand what your saying.

I believe your right out dismissal of people's counters is because your have your own agenda. To quote your very first post here:
Surface Reflection wrote:Would Josh and whoever is with him, consider maybe setting up some sort of way for those modders to earn some money for their efforts?
Im thinking of a setup of collecting the few rare best such big mods and then selling them in a bundle for some small amounts - as a way to support the best modders and Josh and LT? Money is shared with Josh since its his skill and programming that make all this possible, etc.
Sorry if some of us here offer some resistance to your paid to mod dream.

To be honest I wasn't even totally against it after reading others debate it. (you know, that's why people discuss stuff)

Ah well.

Edit: my apologies to everyone for sounding overly harsh here. I posted this partially out of frustration. I was going to go back and delete it but think my general message still stands, I am not happy with how I delivered it however.
Last edited by Zanteogo on Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should mods be free?

#275
Scytale wrote:Well Duck, I admire you for your persistence =P Maybe I'll get some of it by osmosis through the forum
Oh, I'm not persistent. Just relatively uncaring. :mrgreen:
Kichae Chandramani wrote:If no original game files are included, and technology that includes a no-sale license isn't used to create the original content, a license isn't required to sell the mod.
... Then why even bring licenses into it? The assumption was that if you're allowed to sell an entirely different game using the base engine as a standalone game, then you should also be allowed to sell an entirely different game using the base engine as a mod.
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Re: Should mods be free?

#277
Just think to yourself "If I make 11 more constructive posts, than I get to play as an AC130 for 90 seconds." That should be more than enough to get you through. 15 more lets you use a tactical nuke. :lol:

Seriously though, a forum "patience streak" counter that works like a rep system, and lets you place limited use gifs of CoD killstreaks would be good fun. :mrgreen:
I had a good laugh at this =P
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Re: Should mods be free?

#280
graf, your first post is based around the notion of monetizing all mods so its irrelevant to anything i am saying. Your second barely touches on what i am actually saying at the end of it.
It seems that you didnt really read what i am suggesting but rather read comments about it from others and then replied to everything.
Scytale wrote:One of the reasons I want to avoid participating in active and semicontroversial discussions for too long is that no matter how nice the community is, people still don't actually read what's being said. About once every month or two I take a deep breath and give it a shot, and then pretty much end up regretting it.
Same here. and i only do it when i think i have something constructive to add...
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Re: Should mods be free?

#281
Surface Reflection wrote:graf, your first post is based around the notion of monetizing all mods so its irrelevant to anything i am saying. Your second barely touches on what i am actually saying at the end of it.
It seems that you didnt really read what i am suggesting but rather read comments about it from others and then replied to everything.
I disagree. I did read your post and that is what I had to say. I talked about my thoughts on mod monetization in general, about specific problems with doing small "mod packs" of good mods, and possible solutions or processes to handle the development of such high quality mods, while attempting to prevent piracy, and maintain the benefits of mass user testing that mods get. As the actual topic is called "Should mods be free?", I think that the discussion of mod monetization in general, as well as specific instances of ideas, is on topic and relevant. If we are going to discuss some mods costing money, whether they be good mods or otherwise, the discussion of the other mods being monetized, even just to compare, is necessary and relevant.

To be clear, I said mod monetization in general, I think would be, from my perspective, bad. However, my take on your idea would be small mods of particularly excellent caliber, perhaps ones that Josh uses himself, be included in the base game, with the modder receiving payment for his or her work. As your idea was very similar, the only difference being you wanting to release mod packs instead of just bundling them with the base game, I thought that my suggestion was very relevant, as my take removes the sting of the players paying for third party DLC (as the base price would cover the costs of paying contributing modes, or at most a small price increase of the base game if Josh decided to give a contributer more than a one time payment), Josh has some of his work load relieved, and the game is improved. Pretty much everybody wins... except for those who don't play the game. :D

There would still be issues, but at least if the game gets bundled, the development process for the mod can stay the same, and the modder still gets paid when the dev cycle is finished, assuming it gets bundled with the game. It wouldn't matter if everybody already has it, because the funds from sales of the game itself, rather than from the audience; which in a traditional dev cycle would already have one version of the mod or another. The dev gets payed, doesn't have to worry about his mod being pirated to his or her detriment, and Josh gets to include a new feature or two without any more sleepless nights.

All of the information and theory making I am using is based off of my knowledge and experience with the KSP modding community. Let me know if you don't think that is a good analogue, but I think it suits LT pretty well, as both games are very open to modding, and allow simple changes, new features, or near total conversions using the tools provided by the devs. Sure, KSP is in Beta (than ever) now, but it has more content than most AAA games out on steam right now, without mods, and exponentially more so with them.

I went on an explanation of why I don't support general monetization, as forms the infrastructure upon which I base my ideas on small degrees of monetization. If done correctly, it could avoid the issues with the "slippery slope" I mentioned, leaves the community intact, and allows best modders to get paid for their work, assuming they want to be paid.

In and among that suggestion, I responded to other peoples ideas about mod monetization, as that is what the thread generally is about, and that is what they were and are talking about. As this is a group discussion, responding to other peoples posts as well as yours, is important, else we would all be talking about 4 or 5 different things... which has happened already so I guess I really shouldn't be worrying. :lol: I am pretty sure I touched on all of your points throughout my posts here in this thread, but if you want to show me which ones I have overlooked, I would be glad to clear up any misunderstandings.

So, sheesh dude. No need to get yourself all riled up. Instead of saying "You didn't read what I wrote," say "You didn't touch on points x, y, and z. You wouldn't mind responding to those more clearly, would ya?" Rest assured, I did read what you wrote, as well as what everyone else wrote. The only person coming off aggressive and/or confrontational here is you. :| So please, as my father used to say in the 80's (70's???), keep it mellow, man. And stay puft. (I made up the last bit. All mine. What! :mrgreen: ) I should probably work on Calculus now... at 3:30 AM. Really hope I have off tomorrow.
Libertas per Technica
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Re: Should mods be free?

#282
TBH, I really hate threads that end up like this.

Someone asks a question, a really fair question. Someone responds with something that basically says "I don't want to pay for mods" and then it turns into a bunch of logistical issues that aren't of concern, especially in proposing ideas.

Some people want to be able to support mods and get recognized. Some people don't want to pay for that. Some people won't pay no matter what.

That's exactly what this debate/arguing comes down to. Maybe this thread should be split off to a "How to make paid-for mods work" and keep all the bantering and "Your opinion is bad, and you should feel bad" in one place.
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Re: Should mods be free?

#283
Then the solution is simple, just use a PayPal tip jar, like some moders are already doing now. :eh:
(now the people who would pay do, and the people who never pay won't, and the people who sometimes pay, might pay later)
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Re: Should mods be free?

#284
N810 wrote:Then the solution is simple, just use a PayPal tip jar, like some moders are already doing now. :eh:
(now the people who would pay do, and the people who never pay won't, and the people who sometimes pay, might pay later)
Let's just make everything free with a tip jar. All games should release with a pay-what-you-want scheme. Restaurants should stop charging for food and service, and let people choose what to pay. Supermarkets should stock products without prices, because people who would pay do, and people who never pay won't, so there's no need for them.

I'm sure that's just as effective as having actual prices, and there are no downsides whatsoever. :roll:
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