Scytale wrote: Who pays for fanfiction?

*misses everything else*

Wait, I get to charge people for reading my novel thread? Oh, heck yeah!

TGS wrote:So in all honesty mod creators should be happy that they aren't having to pay on top just to use the engine.

That's rather harsh and I'm so much in disagreement, I'm just gonna leave that aside.

I don't think there are things that don't need fixing, or good mods that deserve failing and can be written off as collateral just like that. It doesn't mean they were worse creators, just had less money and time to invest - the current system rewards a specific layer of people with the visible success you're citing.
Half-baked ideas just don't get purchased. Second Life does this, demos with terrible obstructive logos and stuff are displayed while you try an item out. It's just as easily applicable to our hypothetical new Skyrim armor set.

Poet1960 wrote: LOL. Really? It shouldn't be the consumer who sets the price? You are partially correct. A creator usually does set the price. The problem is, is there a market for, or people willing to pay the expressed price? YOU may think your painting is on the same level as Rembrandt, unfortunately, the general public thinks it stinks. So you can go ahead and charge whatever you want, the question is, will anyone pay it?

The mod creator who sets the price is gonna find out in practice soon enough. Don't see the issue. LOL.

Syndicrat wrote: Some Skyrim modders (mostly on Nexus) already seem to almost abuse their control over their creations. I've seen a few people who threaten to throw a tantrum and stop modding if anyone ever uploads their content elsewhere, or take down their mod because of trolls and rude comments. Allowing monetization just further encourages such legal-but-not-exactly-ethical behavior. If someone would put actual effort into making sock accounts to get more worthless endorsements on Nexus, more would do it to trick a few people into buying their mod.

Control ratings harder, since we are talking real money here. And gosh and geeze, yes, I'd be upset too if someone took my work without my permission. Don't see how that is immoral.

Syndicrat wrote: I'm not going to lie: I won't be donating to any mod authors, and I won't be any more likely to give them money just because I can't get the mod otherwise. Perhaps many people on this forum would pay, but they're probably here because they were willing to give money to Josh's Kickstarter. There's no sugarcoating the fact most people aren't going to bother paying even a small sum to download a mod.

It would be a shame to see the modding potential of this game ruined or at least substantially reduced just because some people insist on having everyone compensate the almighty content creator. I don't want sound like I'm mad at you guys for wanting to support modders - it's great that you're more selfless than me - but you can do that by donating already.

You are the market segment never gained, never lost

Scytale wrote:In the mind of the community, modabbility is often such a big thing because it provides variation on the game for free, among other things. If people start charging for mods, people who might otherwise get the mod in a packaged DLC form might refuse to get it out of principle. I think if you charge for a mod, demand for the mod will go down because "Why should I be paying for mods now?". But even more generally, Poet's comment brings up a very relevant point regarding mods - they do very often not have the production quality that DLC or fully finished games have (flawed releases aside). Mods are community made; in this sense, they're a little like fanfiction.

Who pays for fanfiction?

Well, in my opinion gamers are just spoiled. I'm not gonna say it's an easy transition, but it's something worth trying. Free stuff will always be out there. And I do commission fanfic, personally. Sorry



Just to be clear, I'm not talking about LT specifically, but very much in broad general.

Mistycica wrote:And I do commission fanfic, personally. Sorry

Seriously? That must be some incredibly good fanfiction...

Talvieno wrote:

Scytale wrote: Who pays for fanfiction?

*misses everything else*

Wait, I get to charge people for reading my novel thread? Oh, heck yeah!

Nah, but once I get a sample of it, I might ask you for a commission price quote. How's that sound to you?

Idunno wrote:Just have Josh decide. It's his game.

And LT is basically a game engine, in the same vein as Unity. If someone creates something that is not Limit Theory out of it, then I see no reason for them not sending it to Josh for permission to market it. If he says no then no. If he says yes OTOH...

^^^This. I have only been thinking of this topic in the context of games and mods in general, but if you want to specifically apply it to LT, then it is definitely Josh's call, because you would be using his engine and his game and trying to gleen monetary gain from it by riding on his shirttails, so it seems rather cheesy and lazy to me to try and charge for a mod of HIS game, or any game really.

Obviously this is decision only Josh can make a final word on.. but I would think that monetising a mod is no different to monetising a Youtube Let's Play. I don't really think people will have a lot of success, unless it's a total conversion with lots of stuff, selling it outright as compared to simply asking for donations. Most people mod as a labour of love.. but for those hardcore, total conversion mods a donation is generally always appreciated.. but yeah, on principle, I don't have a problem with people monetising them.

Mistycica wrote:

Talvieno wrote:

Scytale wrote: Who pays for fanfiction?

*misses everything else*

Wait, I get to charge people for reading my novel thread? Oh, heck yeah!

Nah, but once I get a sample of it, I might ask you for a commission price quote. How's that sound to you?

I was joking, really... Small Choices is technically original fiction, but still. I actually didn't know people actually paid for fanfiction... bit of a surprise there. And... commission price quote? I wouldn't know a thing about it. I literally just learned that people actually commission fanfiction. I'm not sure my stuff would be up to par.

Gamers might be spoiled, but agree with Idunno and Poet: Josh is the creator, and the key point is he owns the IP. Any mod is still part of that IP. It would actually be illegal in most countries for a modder to charge for a mod without explicit permission from Josh. I'm not even sure they could accept any money for it at all, but I may be conflating it with another law.

Technically, Tal, I think one could make the strong case that Small Choices is not original, because it uses (however tangentially) the LT IP. It's not as strong a case as most... uh, Harry Potter fanfic I guess? I dunno (I summon you!), I don't really read much fanfic.

Talvieno wrote: I was joking, really... Small Choices is technically original fiction, but still. I actually didn't know people actually paid for fanfiction... bit of a surprise there. And... commission price quote? I wouldn't know a thing about it. I literally just learned that people actually commission fanfiction. I'm not sure my stuff would be up to par.

I'll dig into your book first, you got time to decide, offer stays open :3

light487 wrote:Obviously this is decision only Josh can make a final word on.. but I would think that monetising a mod is no different to monetising a Youtube Let's Play. I don't really think people will have a lot of success, unless it's a total conversion with lots of stuff, selling it outright as compared to simply asking for donations. Most people mod as a labour of love.. but for those hardcore, total conversion mods a donation is generally always appreciated.. but yeah, on principle, I don't have a problem with people monetising them.

I'd have a kick out of seeing small mods being tiny microtransactions. Big total conversions already make it big very often, just think of Stanley Parable, Killing Floor, GMod, or DayZ (and that makes me happy!).

Scytale wrote:Gamers might be spoiled, but agree with Idunno and Poet: Josh is the creator, and the key point is he owns the IP. Any mod is still part of that IP. It would actually be illegal in most countries for a modder to charge for a mod without explicit permission from Josh. I'm not even sure they could accept any money for it at all, but I may be conflating it with another law.

I didn't argue that. It was absolutely an 'in general gaming industry' idea, sorry if it came through LT-specific. Naturally the game creator and IP owner decides if mods are up for monetization or not, and if so, how much a creator pays percentile or upfront for that.

Mistycica wrote:...snip a bunch of stuff.


Just to be clear, I'm not talking about LT specifically, but very much in broad general.

You don't see the problem? Well let me clear it up for you. You want to charge people money for what has historically been free, on the premise that it will somehow improve the overall modding world. So, here's the scenario.

You see a mod that you like which is currently free like all mods. YOU think it is worth donating money to it. So because YOU are willing to pay for it, or for any mod, you think everyone else should pay too whether they agree with you or not.

I'm sorry, but I am not you. The difference is, I would not charge for the mod but allow people to donate if they so choose, in other words, I allow everyone the freedom to make up their own mind, your solution however, seems to be to force everyone else to pay for mods because you think everyone else should be willing to pay too.

Sounds like socialistic thinking to me.

Poet1960 wrote:

Mistycica wrote:...snip a bunch of stuff.


Just to be clear, I'm not talking about LT specifically, but very much in broad general.

You don't see the problem? Well let me clear it up for you. You want to charge people money for what has historically been free, on the premise that it will somehow improve the overall modding world. So, here's the scenario.

You see a mod that you like which is currently free like all mods. YOU think it is worth donating money to it. So because YOU are willing to pay for it, or for any mod, you think everyone else should pay too whether they agree with you or not.

I'm sorry, but I am not you. The difference is, I would not charge for the mod but allow people to donate if they so choose, in other words, I allow everyone the freedom to make up their own mind, your solution however, seems to be to force everyone else to pay for mods because you think everyone else should be willing to pay too.

Sounds like socialistic thinking to me.

Socialistic - as if that were a bad thing, is that an insult now? I don't know if it's socialistic, but it's definitely not capitalist and free market to leave a person creating their stuff to the mercy of handouts from consumers and taking away his rights to his creations by default. Monetizing mods in the way I mentioned is the more fair yet more capitalist way, while leaving the believers of free mods free to offer them for no charge. Will people offer free mods? Well do people offer free art requests or free software? The choice still should be in the hands of the seller, not the buyer, as this isn't charity or begging. I'm not deciding anything here, just would like to see options open, unlike the current tyranny of the gamer situation.

Also, you are in the same fault by that logic - you argue that you wouldn't want spending money on mods, disregarding possible improvements and the opinion of basically everyone not in agreement with you, along with the modders, arguing on for the sake of your wallet staying untouched and your free goodies staying free. Where is the capitalist spirit in not believing that money can make everything better?


Just please don't throw star spangled slurs at me, they are just making you look terrible.

Mistycica wrote:

TGS wrote:So in all honesty mod creators should be happy that they aren't having to pay on top just to use the engine.

That's rather harsh and I'm so much in disagreement, I'm just gonna leave that aside.

What I mean by that is that LT while being an extremely versatile engine, is a game. It isn't a programming engine. It isn't being designed as such (as far as we know) Unity, Torque, even "RPGMaker" all cost money to make products in. So yeah. With LT being as versatile as it is, Josh could freaking charge people to use it "as" a modding engine. At the very least he could separate the game from the engine and setup a licensing system to create content in it. That would be highly unfriendly to modders and I cannot for the life of me see Josh doing it... but he could.

I'm not against Modders making money. What I'm against is a fundamental shift of the "mod content" of LT basically turning into a Sims store or Second Life. Where just to appease higher quality mod creators with the ability to monetize we open the flood gates for everyone to charge for what could be simple yet extremely useful mods. What I think would be best would be for Josh or an appointed administrator within the community to setup and head a creators club of sorts that focuses heavily on premium/optimal and basically... large scale mods. The sort of mods that would classify as DLC, Expansions or even entirely new games. Maybe Josh should get a cut, maybe not I don't know. The point is I am strongly against opening that up to everyone. By all means yes people that spend months making an extremely polished high quality mod should be able to monetize. But not everyone.

All I have to say is that Josh would have to be completely insane to let people mod LT into completely new games for any low amount of money or free and let them sell it for whatever they want. IMO the mods and conversions either need to be free or if he licenses out his engine for people to sell completely redone games with then it should cost them thousands of dollars of initial investment or some sort of high price revenue sharing just like if they were to buy a real engine to make games with. At that point the new games no longer become mods and are just new games made with the LT engine.

Okay, let's put this in another context.

People who are pro gun rights, uphold the right to bear arms, but do not try to force anyone to go out and buy a gun.
Anti-gun people, don't like guns, and because they don't like them, do everything they can to try and force people to not have them.

See the difference? One side has a belief, but allows each person to make up their own mind, the other has their belief, and then tries to force everyone else to comply with it.

Because you are willing to pay for a mod, you seem to think everyone else should too. Socialist thinking, no individual, all equal and think the same.

Guys........

Look, if someone wanted to charge for mods, would it really hurt anything?

- Someone spends a little time to make a bad mod and charges for it. Outcome: Nobody buys or plays the mod.
- Someone spends some time to make an okay mod and charges for it. Outcome: A few people buy the mod, but most look for free alternatives.
- Someone spends a ton of time, makes an awesome mod, and charges for it. Outcome: Some people buy the mod, but some look for free alternatives.
- Someone spends a little time to make a bad mod and sets up a donation button. Outcome: A few people play the mod, but nobody donates.
- Someone spends some time to make an okay mod and sets up a donation button. Outcome: Some people play the mod, and somebody might donate.
- Someone spends a ton of time, makes an awesome mod, and sets up a donation button. Outcome: Most people play the mod, and a few people donate.
- Someone spends a little time to make a bad mod and sets it up as free. Outcome: A few people play the mod. Modder makes guaranteed zero income.
- Someone spends some time to make an okay mod and sets it up as free. Outcome: Some people play the mod. Modder makes guaranteed zero income.
- Someone spends a ton of time, makes an awesome mod, and sets it up as free. Outcome: Most people play the mod. Modder makes guaranteed zero income.


Basically, no matter what you do, there will always be alternatives, because that's the nature of modding unless the mod is outstanding. In addition, allowing people to sell it boosts the amount of time that people are willing to spend on modding - if they think they're going to get something out of it, of course they'll put more effort in. If their mod isn't absolutely incredible and they try to sell it, nobody's going to buy it anyway.



But really, guys, let's play nice, okay? We're not the ones who are going to make this decision anyway. This is just a friendly debate. Let's keep it that way.