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Re: Should mods be free?

#286
Mainly that you can have your digital cake and it too. :lol:
This is the shareware/freeware model that a lot of software was published under in the 80's/90's.

ps. waitress work for tips in the US
"A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- Arthur C. Clarke
Post

Re: Should mods be free?

#287
DWMagus wrote:TBH, I really hate threads that end up like this.

Someone asks a question, a really fair question. Someone responds with something that basically says "I don't want to pay for mods" and then it turns into a bunch of logistical issues that aren't of concern, especially in proposing ideas.

Some people want to be able to support mods and get recognized. Some people don't want to pay for that. Some people won't pay no matter what.

That's exactly what this debate/arguing comes down to. Maybe this thread should be split off to a "How to make paid-for mods work" and keep all the bantering and "Your opinion is bad, and you should feel bad" in one place.
Well, to be fair, I think the original proposal was to actually allow people to create what would effectively be "3rd Party DLC". (and really, the only traditional difference between DLC and a mod would be who the creator of it is, so...)

Basically, someone would create a mod. Submit it, if it was good enough it would be added to the store as DLC.

The silly thing about the whole "debate", was that in the end it's totally up to Josh anyways what he decides to sell and what he doesn't. It would be like us debating if Josh should be allowed to take on additional employees. I can mail in any bit of code I like to Josh and ask him what he thinks. Why people think they need group approval for this in retrospect is beyond me.
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Re: Should mods be free?

#288
DigitalDuck wrote:
N810 wrote:Then the solution is simple, just use a PayPal tip jar, like some moders are already doing now. :eh:
(now the people who would pay do, and the people who never pay won't, and the people who sometimes pay, might pay later)
Let's just make everything free with a tip jar. All games should release with a pay-what-you-want scheme. Restaurants should stop charging for food and service, and let people choose what to pay. Supermarkets should stock products without prices, because people who would pay do, and people who never pay won't, so there's no need for them.

I'm sure that's just as effective as having actual prices, and there are no downsides whatsoever. :roll:
I had a good laugh at this. Usually I'd take up Dinosawer's point about physical/digital goods being different and crusade like a madman, but that is neither here nor there.
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Re: Should mods be free?

#289
Zanteogo wrote:
The silly thing about the whole "debate", was that in the end it's totally up to Josh anyways what he decides to sell and what he doesn't. It would be like us debating if Josh should be allowed to take on additional employees. I can mail in any bit of code I like to Josh and ask him what he thinks. Why people think they need group approval for this in retrospect is beyond me.
For some reason, large chunks of discussions like this end up almost actively avoiding this point. I wonder why that is? No sarcasm, I'm genuinely curious.
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Re: Should mods be free?

#291
Scytale wrote:
Zanteogo wrote:
The silly thing about the whole "debate", was that in the end it's totally up to Josh anyways what he decides to sell and what he doesn't. It would be like us debating if Josh should be allowed to take on additional employees. I can mail in any bit of code I like to Josh and ask him what he thinks. Why people think they need group approval for this in retrospect is beyond me.
For some reason, large chunks of discussions like this end up almost actively avoiding this point. I wonder why that is? No sarcasm, I'm genuinely curious.
And this is why I suggested there should be a thread on "How this should work" and leave the decision on whether or not to do it up to the man himself. ;)
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Should mods be free?

#292
DWMagus wrote:
Scytale wrote:
Zanteogo wrote:
The silly thing about the whole "debate", was that in the end it's totally up to Josh anyways what he decides to sell and what he doesn't. It would be like us debating if Josh should be allowed to take on additional employees. I can mail in any bit of code I like to Josh and ask him what he thinks. Why people think they need group approval for this in retrospect is beyond me.
For some reason, large chunks of discussions like this end up almost actively avoiding this point. I wonder why that is? No sarcasm, I'm genuinely curious.
And this is why I suggested there should be a thread on "How this should work" and leave the decision on whether or not to do it up to the man himself. ;)
A reasonable suggestion?? no...

Gratz on 4000 posts Magus.
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Re: Should mods be free?

#294
N810 wrote:Mainly that you can have your digital cake and it too. :lol:
This is the shareware/freeware model that a lot of software was published under in the 80's/90's.
No it's not.

Shareware is when a small portion of the game is free and is encouraged to be shared (hence the name), wherein those that wish to have more must pay to get the rest of the game.

There's no "tip jar". It's essentially a large demo version.
N810 wrote:ps. waitress work for tips in the US
And everyone thinks that's a good idea, right?
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Re: Should mods be free?

#295
DigitalDuck wrote:
N810 wrote:Mainly that you can have your digital cake and it too. :lol:
This is the shareware/freeware model that a lot of software was published under in the 80's/90's.
No it's not.

Shareware is when a small portion of the game is free and is encouraged to be shared (hence the name), wherein those that wish to have more must pay to get the rest of the game.

Usualy... but sometimes you got the entire software, but there was a splash screen with reminder to donate

There's no "tip jar". It's essentially a large demo version.
N810 wrote:ps. waitress work for tips in the US
And everyone thinks that's a good idea, right?

Most waitresses make well above minimum wage


In this business model you have to convince you customer that your labor is worth the cost, and therefore encourages customer support and quality.
"A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- Arthur C. Clarke
Post

Re: Should mods be free?

#298
Graf wrote: I disagree. I did read your post and that is what I had to say.
Ok, good. It seemed like you didnt at first.
Spoiler:      SHOW
I talked about my thoughts on mod monetization in general, about specific problems with doing small "mod packs" of good mods, and possible solutions or processes to handle the development of such high quality mods, while attempting to prevent piracy, and maintain the benefits of mass user testing that mods get. As the actual topic is called "Should mods be free?", I think that the discussion of mod monetization in general, as well as specific instances of ideas, is on topic and relevant. If we are going to discuss some mods costing money, whether they be good mods or otherwise, the discussion of the other mods being monetized, even just to compare, is necessary and relevant.
You may talk about what you wish but when replying to me and my specific suggestion, if that answer or post is not directly relevant or recognizes what i actually said i will just ignore it. (in the future especially)

I really doubt any mod gets any kind of mass testing. During its development.
If the game is ultra popular and the mod too then yes, it will get a lot of players using it - but that comes later on.
To be clear, I said mod monetization in general, I think would be, from my perspective, bad. However, my take on your idea would be small mods of particularly excellent caliber, perhaps ones that Josh uses himself, be included in the base game, with the modder receiving payment for his or her work.
Forced obligatory monetization of mods in general is bad. Thats why my suggestion is aimed at very specific and rare huge mods, for several really good reasons.

I do agree with this idea of yours of incorporating smaller mods into the game could be workable and beneficial for both the game and the moders but im not sure exactly why Josh would need to pay for those, or how much, because... its all done on his own proprietary engine. I think public recognitions and cool points would be enough for those, especially because they dont require such gigantic efforts or time investments as those i am talking about.

I dont see what piracy has to do with any of it.
I am pretty sure I touched on all of your points throughout my posts here in this thread, but if you want to show me which ones I have overlooked, I would be glad to clear up any misunderstandings.
yeah... not really.
However, whatever happens, the system of supporting a super rare high quality total conversion will eventually slip down the slippery slope. At first it works as intended, then slightly less high quality mods get included, and so on, and eventually the whole thing gets monetized. It would take a while certainly, but I am arguing against paying for mods, because thats what would inevitably happen with a system where the modders vote on their favorite mods, as you suggested.
First of all, your declaration that my idea would inevitably lead to whole thing getting monetized - is an empty declaratory statement. An argument from absurdity fallacy.
Plus, it isnt true in reality because if that was inevitable then garry mod would have monetized everything by now. But that didnt happen.

And i never suggested that modders vote on their favorite mods. Thats a misunderstanding that you somehow formed. (feel free to take a sentence or its part out of context and quote it as such)
So, sheesh dude. No need to get yourself all riled up.
How about you dont imply that you know my emotional state or thinking? I barely managed the will to even write what i did. It was depressing, not riling up.
The only person coming off aggressive and/or confrontational here is you. :|
:think: ?
So please, as my father used to say in the 80's (70's???), keep it mellow, man. And stay puft. (I made up the last bit. All mine. What! :mrgreen: ) I should probably work on Calculus now... at 3:30 AM. Really hope I have off tomorrow.
How about listening to your pa`s advice and chilling out, maybe sometimes asking questions instead of making declaratory aggressive statements about my personality, emotional and mind states? - while accusing me of being aggressive?

Atleast i have enough of politeness to say that something - seemed to me - instead of claiming it like an absolute truth.

But this does make me aggressive and confrontational, now.
What metric allows a super high quality mod, that may be slightly unpopular, to be monetized, while the super useful, but low quality one is not?

Time and effort it takes to create it and its complexity. Is it a huge expansion, standalone mod, complete conversion? If yes - then yes.
Josh doesn't have time to wade through all of them,
Thats why i suggested only these huge mods to be acceptable. There is only a few of those even for super popular games with audience in millions and thousands of modders. And out of those few, even less are really good.

I never said that Josh would do it all by his lonesome self either. But he would have the final say.
Once a mod hits critical mass for being monetized, does the modder say he/she is charging for it?
What is the point of this question if you had read my suggestion?
Do people get refunds if they want them?
Do you get refunds for games you bought? What are the rare cases when thats possible? Same measures. Meaning - NO, unless the mod was falsely advertized.
What happens if a mod in development is abandoned?
:wtf:
I can think of some huge problems with trying to figure out how to develop these mods without having serious piracy issues, or losing the benefits of mass user testing.
For this to work, I would think that these high quality mods would have to built without being tested by the public, as to avoid piracy.
This doesnt make any sense at all. Avoiding piracy never had anything to do with any development of mods. All these things can be pirated whatever you do about it so its pointless to worry about it or do any special things to prevent it. Because you cant. Its a non argument. Especially in this case.
They would have to receive funding during the dev process,
why? does any of modders who do these huge total conversions and such receive any funding before or after?
That actually might not be a bad system. A modder releases a mod, which is then elevated to be charged for(based on quality and size). The modder then, having already proved his/her worth, builds the "pro" version of the mod utilizing resources from pre orders and stuff and releases it. The non pro version could be used as a demo. Or, the modder having, proved his/her worth, just builds a new mod, which can be charged for, assuming the moderators play it and deem it up to snuff.
Atleats here you replied to your own questions.
Im not sure where of the above you are talking about my specific suggestion, where you are talking about mods in general, and where you are just flying off on tangents.
If some of those were not directly responding to my specific suggestion, that doesnt seem like something you actually understood even if you did read it, then disregard my answers because its all irrelevant - to my specific suggestion and i just dont care.

You may think you will now argue with me about all these small things for five pages but thats not going to happen.
Im going to make one last paragraph describing what i am actually suggesting and then reply only to that in the future.


Observed from a modder point of view:

The game comes out, it rocks, many modders start creating all kinds of mods. Its all nice and free as usual, as the culture of modding always was and should be.
One modder looks at all that, his eyes gets glassy, a vision! - and says... man, this is so good, im going to do something bigger. Huge! enormous!
And he goesa to work on it as its usually done. Maybe he gets a few more people to work on it after some time, maybe he is at it all alone.
It all lasts very long, a year or two. people have their jobs and lives, its a hobby, things go slowly, there is feature creep, revisions, things get cut, changed, etc, etc.

After a year or two (hopefully) mr. Josh Parnell gets an email.
In it, the message says:

"Hi Josh,

I had been working on this enormous mod for your game for past year or two and its finally ready, i think haha... huhu... :ghost: ahem, cough...
I would like to submit it for that awesome new deal you have, because it is really huge, practically a whole game to itself and i think its really good.
here is the link, let me know.
Kind regards and blah, blah,blah"


- Then Josh gets some feedback from players who already tried this mod, or helped to play-test it and whatever. (there wont be many of those, never is)

Then he plays the mod himself, offers it to the community for more feedback.
All the votes and comments are taken into consideration and he makes the final verdict.

The mod gets accepted for the official LT super mod pack!!!

Over time, the super LT mod pack gets few more additions. Maybe more people and teams would work on such mods knowing there is that possibility?
Now, its not just a mod you are buying for cheap change... its a whole pack... and Official. Quality tested. Approved. installation just a click through steam. Couldnt be easier. Stands there on the steam page right next to the game. There are many comments, endorsements, community reviews, screenshots, tube vids, and demos of these mods to try out.

People see it and go, "Whoa, i get all that for just five bucks? Hell yeah! Ill take three!"

Its not a lot of money, not a lot of customers but over a year or two it all piles up.

One day, a man, all old and gray, with a beard down to his knees, hears a knocking on his door. He barely gets up and hobbles to the door cursing his arthritis and bad walking canes they make these days, not like back in the day when everything was better... and then he forgets where he was going or why, but there a knock on the door interrupts him so he goes to see whats up. "Yeeesh? "

And on the door is the postman handing him a check for 200 sweet dollars (euros, dongs, whatever).

The man goes "Sweet jebus! i knew it! I knew it! It worked! haha! Now i can buy myself that jacket, sneakers, graphic card, walking cane i always wanted! and all that just from my modding hobby! wooo!"

and the story ends happily.

:thumbup:
Last edited by Surface Reflection on Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post

Re: Should mods be free?

#299
For instance... WinZip has always used this model, (although since Corel bought them it's harder to find)
as does many PC utility software companies.

They often have a fancier version for money,
but the free version is by no means just a demo.

Ps. Naa... I consider Nagware, the version where you get an annoying popup every 5 minutes.

Pps. I think you misunderstand my cake analogy. When you sell software, well you still have it and you can sell it again, unlike say cake.
Last edited by N810 on Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- Arthur C. Clarke
Post

Re: Should mods be free?

#300
N810 wrote:For instance... WinZip has always used this model,
as does many PC utility software companies.

They often have a fancier version for money,
but the free version is by no means just a demo.
Well, technically Winzip is a 70 (?) day demo but they suck at DRM so you can reinstall indefinitely... :lol:

Surface Reflection, I kinda like that idea. :thumbup: Although there might be some practical problems (the most important being people having a somewhat optimistic idea about how good their mod is and thus Josh getting more mais than he can handle ;) ), those could be solved.
Although I'm a proponent of the FOSS philosophy, there are sometimes huge conversion mods that really would warrant getting money (of off my head, think Skywind, OpenMW, that kind of stuff.) The really good and big ones, as you say.
Warning: do not ask about physics unless you really want to know about physics.
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