Graf wrote:
I disagree. I did read your post and that is what I had to say.
Ok, good. It seemed like you didnt at first.
I talked about my thoughts on mod monetization in general, about specific problems with doing small "mod packs" of good mods, and possible solutions or processes to handle the development of such high quality mods, while attempting to prevent piracy, and maintain the benefits of mass user testing that mods get. As the actual topic is called "Should mods be free?", I think that the discussion of mod monetization in general, as well as specific instances of ideas, is on topic and relevant. If we are going to discuss some mods costing money, whether they be good mods or otherwise, the discussion of the other mods being monetized, even just to compare, is necessary and relevant.
You may talk about what you wish but when replying to me and my specific suggestion, if that answer or post is not directly relevant or recognizes what i actually said i will just ignore it. (in the future especially)
I really doubt any mod gets any kind of mass testing. During its development.
If the game is ultra popular and the mod too then yes, it will get a lot of players using it - but that comes later on.
To be clear, I said mod monetization in general, I think would be, from my perspective, bad. However, my take on your idea would be small mods of particularly excellent caliber, perhaps ones that Josh uses himself, be included in the base game, with the modder receiving payment for his or her work.
Forced obligatory monetization of mods in general is bad. Thats why my suggestion is aimed at very specific and rare huge mods, for several really good reasons.
I do agree with this idea of yours of incorporating smaller mods into the game could be workable and beneficial for both the game and the moders but im not sure exactly why Josh would need to pay for those, or how much, because... its all done on his own proprietary engine. I think public recognitions and cool points would be enough for those, especially because they dont require such gigantic efforts or time investments as those i am talking about.
I dont see what piracy has to do with any of it.
I am pretty sure I touched on all of your points throughout my posts here in this thread, but if you want to show me which ones I have overlooked, I would be glad to clear up any misunderstandings.
yeah... not really.
However, whatever happens, the system of supporting a super rare high quality total conversion will eventually slip down the slippery slope. At first it works as intended, then slightly less high quality mods get included, and so on, and eventually the whole thing gets monetized. It would take a while certainly, but I am arguing against paying for mods, because thats what would inevitably happen with a system where the modders vote on their favorite mods, as you suggested.
First of all, your declaration that my idea would inevitably lead to whole thing getting monetized - is an empty declaratory statement. An argument from absurdity fallacy.
Plus, it isnt true in reality because if that was inevitable then garry mod would have monetized everything by now. But that didnt happen.
And i never suggested that modders vote on their favorite mods. Thats a misunderstanding that you somehow formed. (feel free to take a sentence or its part out of context and quote it as such)
So, sheesh dude. No need to get yourself all riled up.
How about you dont imply that you know my emotional state or thinking? I barely managed the will to even write what i did. It was depressing, not riling up.
The only person coming off aggressive and/or confrontational here is you.
?
So please, as my father used to say in the 80's (70's???), keep it mellow, man. And stay puft. (I made up the last bit. All mine. What!
) I should probably work on Calculus now... at 3:30 AM. Really hope I have off tomorrow.
How about listening to your pa`s advice and chilling out, maybe sometimes asking questions instead of making declaratory aggressive statements about my personality, emotional and mind states? - while accusing me of being aggressive?
Atleast i have enough of politeness to say that something - seemed to me - instead of claiming it like an absolute truth.
But this does make me aggressive and confrontational, now.
What metric allows a super high quality mod, that may be slightly unpopular, to be monetized, while the super useful, but low quality one is not?
Time and effort it takes to create it and its complexity. Is it a huge expansion, standalone mod, complete conversion? If yes - then yes.
Josh doesn't have time to wade through all of them,
Thats why i suggested only these huge mods to be acceptable. There is only a few of those even for super popular games with audience in millions and thousands of modders. And out of those few, even less are really good.
I never said that Josh would do it all by his lonesome self either. But he would have the final say.
Once a mod hits critical mass for being monetized, does the modder say he/she is charging for it?
What is the point of this question if you had read my suggestion?
Do people get refunds if they want them?
Do you get refunds for games you bought? What are the rare cases when thats possible? Same measures. Meaning - NO, unless the mod was falsely advertized.
What happens if a mod in development is abandoned?
I can think of some huge problems with trying to figure out how to develop these mods without having serious piracy issues, or losing the benefits of mass user testing.
For this to work, I would think that these high quality mods would have to built without being tested by the public, as to avoid piracy.
This doesnt make any sense at all. Avoiding piracy never had anything to do with any development of mods. All these things can be pirated whatever you do about it so its pointless to worry about it or do any special things to prevent it. Because you cant. Its a non argument. Especially in this case.
They would have to receive funding during the dev process,
why? does any of modders who do these huge total conversions and such receive any funding before or after?
That actually might not be a bad system. A modder releases a mod, which is then elevated to be charged for(based on quality and size). The modder then, having already proved his/her worth, builds the "pro" version of the mod utilizing resources from pre orders and stuff and releases it. The non pro version could be used as a demo. Or, the modder having, proved his/her worth, just builds a new mod, which can be charged for, assuming the moderators play it and deem it up to snuff.
Atleats here you replied to your own questions.
Im not sure where of the above you are talking about my specific suggestion, where you are talking about mods in general, and where you are just flying off on tangents.
If some of those were not directly responding to my specific suggestion, that doesnt seem like something you actually understood even if you did read it, then disregard my answers because its all irrelevant - to my specific suggestion and i just dont care.
You may think you will now argue with me about all these small things for five pages but thats not going to happen.
Im going to make one last paragraph describing what i am actually suggesting and then reply only to that in the future.
Observed from a modder point of view:
The game comes out, it rocks, many modders start creating all kinds of mods. Its all nice and free as usual, as the culture of modding always was and should be.
One modder looks at all that, his eyes gets glassy, a vision! - and says... man, this is so good, im going to do something bigger. Huge! enormous!
And he goesa to work on it as its usually done. Maybe he gets a few more people to work on it after some time, maybe he is at it all alone.
It all lasts very long, a year or two. people have their jobs and lives, its a hobby, things go slowly, there is feature creep, revisions, things get cut, changed, etc, etc.
After a year or two (hopefully) mr. Josh Parnell gets an email.
In it, the message says:
"Hi Josh,
I had been working on this enormous mod for your game for past year or two and its finally ready, i think haha... huhu...
ahem, cough...
I would like to submit it for that awesome new deal you have, because it is really huge, practically a whole game to itself and i think its really good.
here is the link, let me know.
Kind regards and blah, blah,blah"
- Then Josh gets some feedback from players who already tried this mod, or helped to play-test it and whatever. (there wont be many of those, never is)
Then he plays the mod himself, offers it to the community for more feedback.
All the votes and comments are taken into consideration and he makes the final verdict.
The mod gets accepted for the official LT super mod pack!!!
Over time, the super LT mod pack gets few more additions. Maybe more people and teams would work on such mods knowing there is that possibility?
Now, its not just a mod you are buying for cheap change... its a whole pack... and Official. Quality tested. Approved. installation just a click through steam. Couldnt be easier. Stands there on the steam page right next to the game. There are many comments, endorsements, community reviews, screenshots, tube vids, and demos of these mods to try out.
People see it and go, "Whoa, i get all that for just five bucks? Hell yeah! Ill take three!"
Its not a lot of money, not a lot of customers but over a year or two it all piles up.
One day, a man, all old and gray, with a beard down to his knees, hears a knocking on his door. He barely gets up and hobbles to the door cursing his arthritis and bad walking canes they make these days, not like back in the day when everything was better... and then he forgets where he was going or why, but there a knock on the door interrupts him so he goes to see whats up. "Yeeesh? "
And on the door is the postman handing him a check for 200 sweet dollars (euros, dongs, whatever).
The man goes "Sweet jebus! i knew it! I knew it! It worked! haha! Now i can buy myself that jacket, sneakers, graphic card, walking cane i always wanted! and all that just from my modding hobby! wooo!"
and the story ends
happily.