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Re: What about civilians?

#76
Safe-r wrote:Interesting. So, the system would be as follows: civilians generate resources - efficiency in generating resources comes from number of civilians - in exchange for money by trading said resources to traders, who then trade goods between various points (be it station, planet, etc.)? I don't see tourism as needed (traffic for the sake of traffic), more like migration to get a better job elsewhere (no matter if it's station, planet, etc.). Rich civilians would then get their own ship, taking into consideration what's the most needed job in the system they're currently at thus becoming owners of their own ship.
They're civilians - they leave large-scale conflicts to factions.
Objection. Civilians play a huge part in any conflict. It should affect them. There should be reason to wage war for breathing space (Germany in 1939), to be able to include civilians as manpower reserve of your armed forces (war between U.S.S.R. and Germany is good example). Each conflict requires manpower and each manpower is affected by war, economy, etc.
Ahhh, I may have misunderstood your question. I wasn't entirely sure what you meant. No, nothing I proposed caused civilians to serve as militial forces, although with escort-type ships already in place, these ships could be utilized to defend the planet if absolutely necessary, I suppose. They wouldn't be going off to attack a far-off colony, but it could be done. With this, civilizations with a war-minded personality would be harder to defeat, thanks to their civilian defense forces. While not by that great of a difference, it could still turn the tide of an otherwise close battle, and the player could mentally add to the story by saying "I'm attacking their planet, and the civilians are trying to attack me out of desperation to defend their home".

The rest of what you said is mostly correct. Civilians would generate resources - efficiency in generating resources would come from number of civilians and morale. Tourism could be used too, it's just a different type of goods. By this system, we're proposing that civilians are "goods", in the sense that they fill a cargo hold much the same way as something else would. It's a bit odd, and seems a bit slavish, but it's really not. Airplanes in real life are just transporting people from one place to another. This could generate revenue as well. That's what I would count as tourism. I don't like the idea of ships going around to random parts of the universe just for the sake of it, though.

And yes, they would migrate to places to get better jobs and try to improve the quality of their lives like people do in real life - it would just be simulated by numbers without any real meaning behind it (at least in the code). It would be up to the player to decide "these people are leaving because I'm not protecting their transports well enough, and they're looking for a better life".


Civilians are all about immersion. Greebles aren't really necessary, but they make things look more beautiful and believable. This is along the same lines - but with added gameplay.
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Re: What about civilians?

#77
I am all for function over details, because function performs a higher role in the gameplay than even the best details. It's about purpose. The reason why I don't think tourism is needed is because civilians would travel to find better job while paying what they've earned for the trip somewhere else. This way they'll generate traffic and income anywhy, so the tourism as a separate branch seems redundant to me as ships transporting civilians around the universe will not stop. Number of civilians should increase, with time, and the more the people migrating from place to place (as colonisation efforts increase), the more traffic will be generated on its own. It fits the LT's approach, I think.
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Re: What about civilians?

#78
Safe-r wrote:I am all for function over details, because function performs a higher role in the gameplay than even the best details. It's about purpose. The reason why I don't think tourism is needed is because civilians would travel to find better job while paying what they've earned for the trip somewhere else. This way they'll generate traffic and income anywhy, so the tourism as a separate branch seems redundant to me as ships transporting civilians around the universe will not stop. Number of civilians should increase, with time, and the more the people migrating from place to place (as colonisation efforts increase), the more traffic will be generated on its own. It fits the LT's approach, I think.
It's not a separate branch, it's just transporting a different type of cargo. Not sure it could be called "tourism", either... it's more just migration back and forth. It doesn't keep track of the individual units, so you could say they were going to visit family members and coming back home. It's just a base gameplay mechanic that aims for immersion by allowing the player to create a story off of it.
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Re: What about civilians?

#81
Talvieno wrote:How you can make civilian populations different:
  • Changing the rate at which morale lowers per race/system/universal area. Some civilians might not experience such rapid mood changes, while others might be finicky and grow unhappy more easily. The former would require less resources and send out fewer ships, while the latter would demand a larger amount of resources, and grow quickly.
I found a PDF document called "Modeling civil violence: An agent-based computational approach". This paper seems to address this question:
Joshua M. Epstein wrote:I am interested in the dynamics of grievance and quite separately, in the dynamics of revolutionary action.
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Re: What about civilians?

#82
Talvieno wrote::\

I personally think that planetary evacuation and planetary sieges are pretty big gameplay mechanics. It's not just here for immersion. It assists in immersion, but it does wonders in other areas as well, especially with helping the universe evolve.
The Limit Theory "Great Diaspora" which seeded many newly discovered systems and galaxies.
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Re: What about civilians?

#83
Talvieno wrote:I personally think that planetary evacuation and planetary sieges are pretty big gameplay mechanics. It's not just here for immersion. It assists in immersion, but it does wonders in other areas as well, especially with helping the universe evolve.
Of planetary sieges I am not sure. Unless we have means to conquer planets, so reducing the amount of ressistance by siege before committing to the final assault would then matter. Blockade runners - specialized ships - could play a role here as well. Planetary evacuation could, in such scenario, serve a double role by getting a workforce to non-threatened systems and letting planet withstand a siege for longer period of time, buying time for organizing a relief attempt from the outside. This is something I can get behind. It adds value to gameplay, especially on high level.
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Re: What about civilians?

#84
Safe-r wrote:
Talvieno wrote:I personally think that planetary evacuation and planetary sieges are pretty big gameplay mechanics. It's not just here for immersion. It assists in immersion, but it does wonders in other areas as well, especially with helping the universe evolve.
Of planetary sieges I am not sure. Unless we have means to conquer planets, so reducing the amount of ressistance by siege before committing to the final assault would then matter. Blockade runners - specialized ships - could play a role here as well. Planetary evacuation could, in such scenario, serve a double role by getting a workforce to non-threatened systems and letting planet withstand a siege for longer period of time, buying time for organizing a relief attempt from the outside. This is something I can get behind. It adds value to gameplay, especially on high level.
If you cut off civilian trade, planets slowly lose morale, and eventually people leave via evacuation/migration. In addition, as planets are enormously important to resource creation, if you starve a planet, it could be as an indirect means to take down an enemy many times your strength through guerrilla tactics. All you need to do is cut off civilian traffic and wait. The enemy factions controlling the planet might respond by trying to figure out where your guerrilla band is, but if you can stay hidden, and strike civilian ships without mercy, eventually you could bring a larger faction to its knees - at least to where they run low on resources. It would weaken them considerably, leaving them open for a large-scale assault. Strategy, you know.

But yes, Mr. Parnell has stated specifically that you will be able to own and conquer planets in the game.

And you're right on every point there. Everything balances out dynamically - evacuating citizens makes it easier for the remaining citizens to stay, by reducing the population, and thus also the morale decrease. It also makes it considerably easier to make them happy again - but it's all evenly weighted. :)
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Re: What about civilians?

#86
Safe-r wrote: Objection. Civilians play a huge part in any conflict. It should affect them. There should be reason to wage war for breathing space (Germany in 1939), to be able to include civilians as manpower reserve of your armed forces (war between U.S.S.R. and Germany is good example). Each conflict requires manpower and each manpower is affected by war, economy, etc.
Just a note here, war in the 20th century is not how wars were always fought, and I doubt that it will be how they are fought in the future. There is a serious difference between a war for power and a war for ideology. Very rarely will wars for power spill into total war, drawing in everyone, they have been quite generally limited to those with power already, fighting each other for the other's share of the pie. It does you no good to smash the other's pie if you want it for yourself...

What tends to cause total war are ideologies, world war 2 was an ideological war, Vietnam was an ideological war, the war on terror is an ideological war. These are not about controlling resources, but are about eliminating a specific way of life that your opponent has. Certainly power and resources are necessities to this kind of war, but they are means to an end, not ends in themselves.

While the 20th century saw many civilians thrown at the enemy to win, it cost all sides dearly, and were it not for the fact that the US was not also utterly destroyed, and could greatly assist in the reconstruction of Europe and Japan, the economy may still be nowhere near what it is today. I think that humanity really did learn that lesson at least, as already, you do not see many calls for more boots to strengthen the militaries of the world, you see calls for more robots, more computer power, the militaries want a less expensive (politically) fighting force with greater military might per person to fight enemies whose military might grows just as quickly. The world is seeing asymmetrical warfare, ideologies powered by technology, seeking to destroy one another, not with waves of men but with precise, surgical strikes where the least effort has the most effect.
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Re: What about civilians?

#87
You miss my point, I think. What Germany did in 1939 can be replicated by the need of space in LT - conquering colonized planets that belong to someone else or defending said planets. Same goes for resources. If civilians can raise enough money from work - let's say they save whatever they don't spend on migration - to ascend into the next level and become "the ship owners" then it gives you more influence as military-oriented ship owners will be useful to you. It's just another way of using a resource that civilians are supposed to be. Just like in Victoria 2, you can encourage them to promote or demote to various roles within the society and if you don't have soldiers... then you need to rise some. I will admit thought that I am not sure how you can grow your military in LT so far. I know that agents require assets and you can create assets, but how you get more agents?
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Re: What about civilians?

#89
I see, I must've missed that part. Thank you. YouTube subtitles aren't good enough to understand everything (as YouTube is not always clear on what the speaker is saying) and I saw videos completely without them so, sadly, I couldn't understand anything with my poor ears. Still, it seems to support the concept for idea of civilians (or NPCs) civilians who'd be able to own their own ships and thus "enter the game" and become potential soldiers for an army to be raised within the system they originate from. Space meat for the rulling being, to be granted a state-constructed and state-owned battleship to fill and command by rulling entity's generals for a price.
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Re: What about civilians?

#90
Quoting Hyperion from the June Devlog Discussion thread:
Hyperion wrote:I am actually wondering how difficult new systems are to create now... I mean wasn't the whole point of all the extra tech work to make content like this simple to make? ... Josh has built the words, now you have dictionaries to make sentences and paragraphs from, no?
Precisely.

I imagine two flavors of civilians: in space and on planets. The space-based variety get small-to-medium ships with no weapons, and are good for raiding or protecting (depending on your play style) and other tactical gameplay features. They also help systems feel lived-in (which does matter) and signal the relative safety of systems. I don't think many new systems are needed for this variety of civilian.

Planet-based civilians are simply abstracted numbers associated with planets to provide operational and strategic effects such as resource consumption, object and research production, and various social/political effects. Several of Talvieno's excellent suggestions fit into this category.

Although I'd like to see political and other effects from planet-based civilians, these would require some extra coding. (I suspect their economic behaviors will be included in LT 1.0.) But that extra coding is potentially simpler if LT includes planetary civilians for economic effects and Josh's new external scripting capabilities -- additional kinds of effects become "content."

Within the realm of feasibility, I think. Easy for me to say, of course. :)

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