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Re: What about civilians?

#106
InfelixTurnus wrote:Bump. I was thinking about this in conjunction with the culture things which Josh has recently shown... Perhaps civilians could act as a 'cultural vector', where addding civilians of a certain culture will 'dilute' the average culture of the place they are arriving to, and slowly replace it with their own culture? I imagine a mass exodus of aggressives into a peaceful nation will eventually have some effect.
Not to start a real-world debate (seriously), but if that were a feature of LT, I suspect NPC factional governments would want to institute various kinds of immigration laws.

I would support both of these features. I like the idea of being able to achieve by "cultural imperialism" factional expansion that the regular pointed-stick variety couldn't. :)
Post

Re: What about civilians?

#107
InfelixTurnus wrote:Bump. I was thinking about this in conjunction with the culture things which Josh has recently shown... Perhaps civilians could act as a 'cultural vector', where addding civilians of a certain culture will 'dilute' the average culture of the place they are arriving to, and slowly replace it with their own culture? I imagine a mass exodus of aggressives into a peaceful nation will eventually have some effect.

This is similar to:
JoshParnell wrote:
Poet1960 wrote:I was watching update vid #20 again, and when I got to the part about colonies, I started wondering if you could actually change or modify the overall or general traits if you bought/conquered or somehow took control of that planet. It would probably take some time I suppose if you could do it at all. Or what if there was some kind of coup that changed the overall planetary traits.

Something to ponder.
I was thinking about dynamic cultural traits as well. I'll probably leave it for a mod (totally possible to change the traits in a script), but it would be interesting to see those traits shift with the currents of the universe.

...and as you can see, Josh has also considered it, but as he said, he will probably leave it for a mod. Still would be interesting though either way.
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Post

Re: What about civilians?

#108
hm... necrotime!

after reading through this thread again i had an idea on how to include tourism in an understandable way into the economy of LT.

the basic version is:
planets generate a "unstatisfied tourist" type NPC/worker.
("[un-/statisfied] tourist from daerla 3")

those unstatisfied tourists can then "level up" (along the probabilistic mechanics that josh outlined for worker npc's ages ago) to statisfied tourists when they are aboard a ship/station that offers touristic services.
for example having an observation bay while passing by the more rarer stellar phenomena, or having a recreational deck that supplied with luxuries/Drugs/exotic dancers etc.
this takes some time and depends on the facilities and the supplied goods / visited phenomena.

the then statisfied tourists would then have to be transported back to their home planet.


Hyperion proposed an addition to this system in form of more diversification of travellers.
every tourist would then have a sozioeconomic class, a mind state (stressed, bored, etc) and a "goal" of a certain class of entertainment.
for example there would be "rich, bored stellar phenomenon seekers" which would for example enjoy sundiving with shuttles or similar.

they would in essence work the same way as in my proposal, but would have more specific requirements to get statisfied.


this system could also incorporate pilgrims and general travellers by specifying a location with their goal as well.


i have no idea how the payout could be handled, though.

ideas? thoughts?

Code: Select all

<+Hyperion> do tell
<+Hyperion> how will LT have tourists?
<+Cornflakes> short form, you get a job to take "unstatisfied tourists" and bring back "statisfied tourists"
<+Cornflakes> long form, planets produce unstatisfied tourists as a "ware" / worker NPC like good
<+Cornflakes> you take them in your (specially equipped) ship/station where they "level up" according to the worker leveling mechanic josh devised ages ago
<+Cornflakes> and when they "leveled up" you bring them back
<+Cornflakes> at least thats the minimally invasive method on LT mechanics
<+Hyperion> i like it, how about different tourist levels, same ideas but different requirements for leveling up
<+Cornflakes> so a "pleased", "excited" etc tourists?
<+Cornflakes> -a
<+Cornflakes> or you mean "stellar phenomena tourists" "nightlife tourists" ?
<+Hyperion> well you could have 3 variables, socioeconomic class, attitude, and goals
<+Cornflakes> hm... could explode pretty fast into many many many "redundant" varieties
<+Cornflakes> but continue
<+Hyperion> sometimes variables are 0, so they dont particularly care what they do or see
<+Hyperion> for example Tourist A= Var1: (economy) Var:2 (Stressed) Var3: (nightlife). Meaning they want accomodations that offer economy levelers(if they offer luxury levers too thats fine but they have to also offer economy levelers)
<+Hyperion> They are stressed so they want stress de-levelers, not excitement
<+Hyperion> And they also want nightlife, not stellar phenomenon or exotic cultures etc
<+Cornflakes> so for those you'd have to build/utilise a leaned back nightclub like infrastructure
<+Cornflakes> ?
<+Hyperion> Well accomodations are straightforward, you have economy levelers which can "process" many economy level tourists or luxury levelers which can "process" only a few
<+Hyperion> But you also have additional modules which offer class levelers/de-levelers such as excitement class levelers which raise the excitement/stress variable and relatation levelers which lower it
<+Cornflakes> mhm
<+Cornflakes> that actually doesnt sound bad
<+Cornflakes> my bit of a gripe there is that it could explode into many individual objects fast...
<+Silverware> o/
<+Taiya> o/
<+Hyperion> And you also have goal levelers which are binary either it satisfies the goal or it doesnt
<+Cornflakes> you'd have planet, class, mindsate, goal, level modifiers
<+Hyperion> you either have nightlife venues or you dont
<+Cornflakes> mhm
<+Hyperion> you either have exotic cultures/museums or you dont
<+Cornflakes> mhm
<+Hyperion> Each variable and its fulfilment is tied into either your payment of your reputation
<+Hyperion> or your reputation*
<+Hyperion> yes
<+Hyperion> individual objects, yes there would be an explosion of them but you arent talking about inidividual modules, but module classes
<+Hyperion> the individual modules are just names
<+Cornflakes> im not talking bout modules
<+Cornflakes> im talking about the hundreds of different tourist object classes that that would create
<+Hyperion> oh
<+Cornflakes> for 2 possible states for each and only one planet we'd already have 2^4 different tourists...
<+Cornflakes> in principle i'd enjoy your variation
<+Cornflakes> not sure if it would be so wise overview and technical wise
<+Hyperion> lets see economy vs luxury = 2 excitement/relaxation = 2. those are universals for all tourists anywhere
<+Cornflakes> so we have 8 variations per planet
<+Cornflakes> times the different goals
<+Hyperion> yes
<+Hyperion> this would also cover pilgrimages too tbh
<+Cornflakes> mhm
<+Cornflakes> well, goal: pilgrimage [location]
<+Hyperion> you just need a religious goal
<+Hyperion> mhm
<+Hyperion> so yes it would cause hundreds of different tourist objects, but thats mainly because of so many points of origin
<+Cornflakes> mhm
<+Cornflakes> maybe we could reduce them to different /cultural/ tourists
<+Cornflakes> zorblaxian, klingon, etc tourists
<+Hyperion> then again we dont really qualify berliner tourists from munchener tourists, we just call them german tourists or even european tourists
<+Cornflakes> yeah
<+Cornflakes> probably enough for LT, though
<+Cornflakes> if we then include general travellers (traveller, goal [location])
<+Hyperion> well you might need a way to have objects become more generalized with distance
<+Hyperion> if youre in frankfurt or paris it might make a difference whether someone is from berlin or munich
<+Hyperion> but not so much if youre in china
<+Cornflakes> mh
<+Cornflakes> would not do much to reduce variation explosion...
<+Hyperion> we only need to reduce varaition explosion to the edge of active simulation
<+Hyperion> not to the infinite multiverse
<+Hyperion> i dont know that josh has any mechanics in place to generalize goods by distance
<+Cornflakes> to the infinite multiverse it would not matter that much, as you can just reduce them to seed goods, or goods defined by the planets state
<+Hyperion> does it still distinguish omicrom percei 8 ale from omicron percei 7 ale 30 jumps away? or would it just become omicron percei ale or even omicron ale?
<+Cornflakes> it would still differentiate, yeah.
<+Cornflakes> its the lowest level im concerned about
<+Cornflakes> when you have a system with 5 planets, all of them with all kinds of tourists...
<+Hyperion> 5planets * 2 classes * 2 mindstates * Ngoals
<+Cornflakes> *2 for fresh/statisfied
<+Hyperion> yes
<+Hyperion> so minimum 40 per goal
<+Cornflakes> would be a bit excessive imo...
<+Hyperion> hmm, i suppose you could cut out the mindstates, as their fulfillment would be partially goal dependant
<+Hyperion> still, 20 tourist types per planet
<+Cornflakes> mhm
<+Hyperion> 20 tourist types per goal *
<+Hyperion> anyways, why does every origin point of tourist need its own object?
<+Cornflakes> hm
<+Cornflakes> i had a good reason for that
<+Cornflakes> i dont remember it now, though
<+Hyperion> is it for fresh v satisfied
<+Cornflakes> no...
<+Hyperion> for the tourism business i think it would be payment upon departure, reputation change upon arrival
<+Hyperion> and what happens if you run off with tourists
<+Hyperion> or they become hostages
<+Silverware> :V
<+Cornflakes> that should be an option to do
<+Hyperion> or their plane is shot out of the sky because you flew over a warzone
<+Silverware> should have Person[Origin][Destination]  if they dont get to their destination before the expire (each one could have a timer on it for when it expires
<+Silverware> then they become Hostage[origin]
<+Hyperion> thats a lot of timers
<+Cornflakes> nah
<+Silverware> :V
<+Cornflakes> just an expiration time on the object
<+Cornflakes> so you'd have them batch wise from the time of departure
<+Silverware> thats what I mean by timer Corn
<+Hyperion> oh
<+Silverware> person[origin][destination][must arive before this time]
<+Cornflakes> and they'd not run in parallel but only be checked occasionally when you acces the cargo hold
<+Silverware> 3 vars
<+Silverware> not hard
<+Silverware> yep
<+Silverware> oh and count of them
<+Silverware> you would pick them up in groups of many
<+Silverware> not individually
<+Cornflakes> hm
<+Hyperion> batch time till statechange=disattisfied batchtime till statechange= hostage?
<+Silverware> yeah
<+Silverware> Happy Person, Dissatisfied person, Hostage
<+Silverware> :V
<+Hyperion> so thats another variable
<+Silverware> na
<+Silverware> its three different objects :D
<+Silverware> it morphs into the other types
<+Silverware> when its time is hit
<+Hyperion> and at hostage you can eliminate their goal variable
<+Cornflakes> and.. everything else
<+Silverware> yup
<+Cornflakes> besides socioeconomic state
<+Hyperion> mhm
<+Silverware> na socioeconomics is decided by the "price" you "buy" them for
<+Cornflakes> as a rich child gives more cash in ransom than office worker #2134243523
<+Silverware> yes but thats price determined
<+Silverware> or type
<+Hyperion> well im thinking that economy modules would hold 1000 economy tourists while luxury modules would hold 100 luxury tourists
<+Silverware> could be named [rich kids]
<+Cornflakes> or just [economy/luxury]
<+Hyperion> exactly
<+Cornflakes> depending on rich child or not
<+Hyperion> if you have hostages though you also need a few additions such as rescue hostages, execute hostages, and release % of hostages
<+Hyperion> and you also need to determine hostage value
<+Hyperion> and % chance that executing hostage will cause ransom payment and % chance that executing hostage will trigger hostage rescue
<+Hyperion> and you need AI hostage ship behaviors.and Hostage rescue behaviors... you want to imobilize the hostage ship not destroy it
<+Hyperion> thank god josh didnt include interiors
<+Hyperion> none of this would be remotely feasible if he had
<+Cornflakes> mhm
<+Cornflakes> would be cool to have hostage situations aboard a station/ship though
<+Hyperion> mhm, but will likely be a mod
Post

Re: What about civilians?

#109
Cornflakes_91 wrote:for example there would be "rich, bored stellar phenomenon seekers" which would for example enjoy sundiving with shuttles or similar.
Yes please, Cornflakes! That's the sort of thing I would enjoy seeing. :thumbup: I'll be doing lots of exploration in the quieter areas of the universe but I really do want to see more going on than just military and commercial traffic whizzing about in the more congested systems. :angel:

I'm still very keen on seeing a sizable civilian presence in LT. Even if they are just decoration ;)
Post

Re: What about civilians?

#110
Spoiler:      SHOW
Cornflakes_91 wrote:hm... necrotime!

after reading through this thread again i had an idea on how to include tourism in an understandable way into the economy of LT.

the basic version is:
planets generate a "unstatisfied tourist" type NPC/worker.
("[un-/statisfied] tourist from daerla 3")

those unstatisfied tourists can then "level up" (along the probabilistic mechanics that josh outlined for worker npc's ages ago) to statisfied tourists when they are aboard a ship/station that offers touristic services.
for example having an observation bay while passing by the more rarer stellar phenomena, or having a recreational deck that supplied with luxuries/Drugs/exotic dancers etc.
this takes some time and depends on the facilities and the supplied goods / visited phenomena.

the then statisfied tourists would then have to be transported back to their home planet.


Hyperion proposed an addition to this system in form of more diversification of travellers.
every tourist would then have a sozioeconomic class, a mind state (stressed, bored, etc) and a "goal" of a certain class of entertainment.
for example there would be "rich, bored stellar phenomenon seekers" which would for example enjoy sundiving with shuttles or similar.

they would in essence work the same way as in my proposal, but would have more specific requirements to get statisfied.


this system could also incorporate pilgrims and general travellers by specifying a location with their goal as well.


i have no idea how the payout could be handled, though.

ideas? thoughts?

Code: Select all

<+Hyperion> do tell
<+Hyperion> how will LT have tourists?
<+Cornflakes> short form, you get a job to take "unstatisfied tourists" and bring back "statisfied tourists"
<+Cornflakes> long form, planets produce unstatisfied tourists as a "ware" / worker NPC like good
<+Cornflakes> you take them in your (specially equipped) ship/station where they "level up" according to the worker leveling mechanic josh devised ages ago
<+Cornflakes> and when they "leveled up" you bring them back
<+Cornflakes> at least thats the minimally invasive method on LT mechanics
<+Hyperion> i like it, how about different tourist levels, same ideas but different requirements for leveling up
<+Cornflakes> so a "pleased", "excited" etc tourists?
<+Cornflakes> -a
<+Cornflakes> or you mean "stellar phenomena tourists" "nightlife tourists" ?
<+Hyperion> well you could have 3 variables, socioeconomic class, attitude, and goals
<+Cornflakes> hm... could explode pretty fast into many many many "redundant" varieties
<+Cornflakes> but continue
<+Hyperion> sometimes variables are 0, so they dont particularly care what they do or see
<+Hyperion> for example Tourist A= Var1: (economy) Var:2 (Stressed) Var3: (nightlife). Meaning they want accomodations that offer economy levelers(if they offer luxury levers too thats fine but they have to also offer economy levelers)
<+Hyperion> They are stressed so they want stress de-levelers, not excitement
<+Hyperion> And they also want nightlife, not stellar phenomenon or exotic cultures etc
<+Cornflakes> so for those you'd have to build/utilise a leaned back nightclub like infrastructure
<+Cornflakes> ?
<+Hyperion> Well accomodations are straightforward, you have economy levelers which can "process" many economy level tourists or luxury levelers which can "process" only a few
<+Hyperion> But you also have additional modules which offer class levelers/de-levelers such as excitement class levelers which raise the excitement/stress variable and relatation levelers which lower it
<+Cornflakes> mhm
<+Cornflakes> that actually doesnt sound bad
<+Cornflakes> my bit of a gripe there is that it could explode into many individual objects fast...
<+Silverware> o/
<+Taiya> o/
<+Hyperion> And you also have goal levelers which are binary either it satisfies the goal or it doesnt
<+Cornflakes> you'd have planet, class, mindsate, goal, level modifiers
<+Hyperion> you either have nightlife venues or you dont
<+Cornflakes> mhm
<+Hyperion> you either have exotic cultures/museums or you dont
<+Cornflakes> mhm
<+Hyperion> Each variable and its fulfilment is tied into either your payment of your reputation
<+Hyperion> or your reputation*
<+Hyperion> yes
<+Hyperion> individual objects, yes there would be an explosion of them but you arent talking about inidividual modules, but module classes
<+Hyperion> the individual modules are just names
<+Cornflakes> im not talking bout modules
<+Cornflakes> im talking about the hundreds of different tourist object classes that that would create
<+Hyperion> oh
<+Cornflakes> for 2 possible states for each and only one planet we'd already have 2^4 different tourists...
<+Cornflakes> in principle i'd enjoy your variation
<+Cornflakes> not sure if it would be so wise overview and technical wise
<+Hyperion> lets see economy vs luxury = 2 excitement/relaxation = 2. those are universals for all tourists anywhere
<+Cornflakes> so we have 8 variations per planet
<+Cornflakes> times the different goals
<+Hyperion> yes
<+Hyperion> this would also cover pilgrimages too tbh
<+Cornflakes> mhm
<+Cornflakes> well, goal: pilgrimage [location]
<+Hyperion> you just need a religious goal
<+Hyperion> mhm
<+Hyperion> so yes it would cause hundreds of different tourist objects, but thats mainly because of so many points of origin
<+Cornflakes> mhm
<+Cornflakes> maybe we could reduce them to different /cultural/ tourists
<+Cornflakes> zorblaxian, klingon, etc tourists
<+Hyperion> then again we dont really qualify berliner tourists from munchener tourists, we just call them german tourists or even european tourists
<+Cornflakes> yeah
<+Cornflakes> probably enough for LT, though
<+Cornflakes> if we then include general travellers (traveller, goal [location])
<+Hyperion> well you might need a way to have objects become more generalized with distance
<+Hyperion> if youre in frankfurt or paris it might make a difference whether someone is from berlin or munich
<+Hyperion> but not so much if youre in china
<+Cornflakes> mh
<+Cornflakes> would not do much to reduce variation explosion...
<+Hyperion> we only need to reduce varaition explosion to the edge of active simulation
<+Hyperion> not to the infinite multiverse
<+Hyperion> i dont know that josh has any mechanics in place to generalize goods by distance
<+Cornflakes> to the infinite multiverse it would not matter that much, as you can just reduce them to seed goods, or goods defined by the planets state
<+Hyperion> does it still distinguish omicrom percei 8 ale from omicron percei 7 ale 30 jumps away? or would it just become omicron percei ale or even omicron ale?
<+Cornflakes> it would still differentiate, yeah.
<+Cornflakes> its the lowest level im concerned about
<+Cornflakes> when you have a system with 5 planets, all of them with all kinds of tourists...
<+Hyperion> 5planets * 2 classes * 2 mindstates * Ngoals
<+Cornflakes> *2 for fresh/statisfied
<+Hyperion> yes
<+Hyperion> so minimum 40 per goal
<+Cornflakes> would be a bit excessive imo...
<+Hyperion> hmm, i suppose you could cut out the mindstates, as their fulfillment would be partially goal dependant
<+Hyperion> still, 20 tourist types per planet
<+Cornflakes> mhm
<+Hyperion> 20 tourist types per goal *
<+Hyperion> anyways, why does every origin point of tourist need its own object?
<+Cornflakes> hm
<+Cornflakes> i had a good reason for that
<+Cornflakes> i dont remember it now, though
<+Hyperion> is it for fresh v satisfied
<+Cornflakes> no...
<+Hyperion> for the tourism business i think it would be payment upon departure, reputation change upon arrival
<+Hyperion> and what happens if you run off with tourists
<+Hyperion> or they become hostages
<+Silverware> :V
<+Cornflakes> that should be an option to do
<+Hyperion> or their plane is shot out of the sky because you flew over a warzone
<+Silverware> should have Person[Origin][Destination]  if they dont get to their destination before the expire (each one could have a timer on it for when it expires
<+Silverware> then they become Hostage[origin]
<+Hyperion> thats a lot of timers
<+Cornflakes> nah
<+Silverware> :V
<+Cornflakes> just an expiration time on the object
<+Cornflakes> so you'd have them batch wise from the time of departure
<+Silverware> thats what I mean by timer Corn
<+Hyperion> oh
<+Silverware> person[origin][destination][must arive before this time]
<+Cornflakes> and they'd not run in parallel but only be checked occasionally when you acces the cargo hold
<+Silverware> 3 vars
<+Silverware> not hard
<+Silverware> yep
<+Silverware> oh and count of them
<+Silverware> you would pick them up in groups of many
<+Silverware> not individually
<+Cornflakes> hm
<+Hyperion> batch time till statechange=disattisfied batchtime till statechange= hostage?
<+Silverware> yeah
<+Silverware> Happy Person, Dissatisfied person, Hostage
<+Silverware> :V
<+Hyperion> so thats another variable
<+Silverware> na
<+Silverware> its three different objects :D
<+Silverware> it morphs into the other types
<+Silverware> when its time is hit
<+Hyperion> and at hostage you can eliminate their goal variable
<+Cornflakes> and.. everything else
<+Silverware> yup
<+Cornflakes> besides socioeconomic state
<+Hyperion> mhm
<+Silverware> na socioeconomics is decided by the "price" you "buy" them for
<+Cornflakes> as a rich child gives more cash in ransom than office worker #2134243523
<+Silverware> yes but thats price determined
<+Silverware> or type
<+Hyperion> well im thinking that economy modules would hold 1000 economy tourists while luxury modules would hold 100 luxury tourists
<+Silverware> could be named [rich kids]
<+Cornflakes> or just [economy/luxury]
<+Hyperion> exactly
<+Cornflakes> depending on rich child or not
<+Hyperion> if you have hostages though you also need a few additions such as rescue hostages, execute hostages, and release % of hostages
<+Hyperion> and you also need to determine hostage value
<+Hyperion> and % chance that executing hostage will cause ransom payment and % chance that executing hostage will trigger hostage rescue
<+Hyperion> and you need AI hostage ship behaviors.and Hostage rescue behaviors... you want to imobilize the hostage ship not destroy it
<+Hyperion> thank god josh didnt include interiors
<+Hyperion> none of this would be remotely feasible if he had
<+Cornflakes> mhm
<+Cornflakes> would be cool to have hostage situations aboard a station/ship though
<+Hyperion> mhm, but will likely be a mod

I approve of this idea.
Post

Re: What about civilians?

#111
So with Sol Trader using a rather good procedural history generator, Josh, is there any correlation between what you intend giving us in Limit Theory and what Chris has provided in his game? (apart from the obvious procedural treatment applied to both)

Is this one of the questions I shouldn't ask due to the super secret sauce clause in the terms and conditions? :mrgreen:

Can we expect to see this aspect of the game revealed in its final polished glory in an update or do we have to wait until beta? :angel:
Post

Re: What about civilians?

#112
Suggestions:

1. Distinguish between civilian desires aboard ships (which can travel) and stations (which are large and well-equipped). Space stations would fulfill different desires than ships, helping to give stations value beyond just building a bigger ship.

2. Define civilian shipboard traffic as "passengers," rather than restricting it to just tourism. While passengers could still have varying socioeconomic statuses, tourism could be just one type of need to be satisfied by someone wanting to book passage on a ship:
  • Tourists (sightseeing)
  • Diplomats (conferences)
  • Scientists (research space objects)
  • Merchants (collect goods and return)
  • Pilgrims (religious journey)
  • Scouts (observe new location)
  • Travelers (simple transport to destination)
and so on.

Optionally, wouldn't it be interesting if passengers aren't always who they say they are?

3. Is there any reason why passenger desires can't be defined using the contracts system?

For example:

SCIENTIST PASSENGER CONTRACT
[ ] Transport passenger to within 1000 kilometers of Object X.
[ ] Remain within 1000 km of Object X for 5 real-time minutes.
[ ] Safely return passenger to the starting location.

I will leave to your imaginations the ways in which a multi-condition contract like this could be complicated in entertaining ways. ;)

Edit: this model could be extended even further to cover non-civilian "traffic": executives could hire ship and station crew this way. Character skills would be provided (e.g., "level 3 Researcher", "Veteran Gunner", "Junior Lt. Commander", for example) for several months, with X amount of money transferred to bank account Y for Z months. The skills of crew would then be applied to ship or station systems to modify the outcomes of service delivery contracts as suggested above.
Post

Re: What about civilians?

#113
why should a big ship not be able to use whatever modules necessary?

Make it (prohibitively) expensive to build a ship capable of holding the same modules as a station, or provide other incentives to use stations instead of ships.

For example being able to use small, fast ships for transporting the passengers to the large, expensive "processing" facility.
Thus having higher uptime than flying back and forth with a cruise liner.


The absence of arbitary hard limits is the reason why i want to play Limit Theory :P


If we can encode all the required data into the objects without them getting a giant memoryhog go for it, if not, then not
Post

Re: What about civilians?

#114
I half-expected someone would raise that objection.

I understand your point about randomly sticking limits on things out of a not-well-thought-through desire to multiply mechanical gameplay choices. I agree that that usually leads to sub-optimal game design generally, and that it's not a good fit for Limit Theory in particular.

But allowing different objects to have different behaviors that they are particularly good at is not the same thing, either conceptually or mechanically, as imposing artificial restrictions on objects to try to force players to pick something else.

I didn't suggest that ships in LT need artificially-imposed limitations. I did not say, "I think ships should be gimped to make stations better!" I specifically said, "Space stations would fulfill different desires than ships." Different does not always imply worse. Sometimes it just means "different."

Letting different objects have different features -- including differing capabilities and different ratings for similar capabilities -- allows opportunities for interesting choices to emerge naturally. When there's more than one reasonable way to do something, that's when you actually get interesting choices to make.

Letting space stations have some ways that they're particularly good about handling civilians, and letting spaceships have other ways in which they are particularly good for handling civilians, creates interesting choices for players in how they interact with civilians. That's not gimping ships; it's insuring that space stations are just as much fun to play with when it comes to civilians, only in different ways.

If you still want to try to stuff a marketplace on a huge ship, go ahead. No limits. Just don't demand that this should somehow work better than a much larger marketplace at a fixed destination like a hollowed-out asteroid, any more than we should expect a space station to be better than a ship at traveling between star systems.
Post

Re: What about civilians?

#115
Why even consider a market a module?
What is a market but a small place to meet (or even over comms) and a large pile of storage for goods.

Any old freighter can fill those requirements!
:P


Basically I would love to see any role fillable by any object, ships, stations, planets, asteroids...
Imagine a Planet with a megalaser, why use all the metal to build the death star when you can strap engines and a gun on a planet instead. :D

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<+BMRX> Silver Invokes Lewdly Verbose Experiences Readily With Absurd Rectal Expeditions
Image
Image
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Re: What about civilians?

#116
One thing that kinda bugs me in games, is when the developers automatically assume that just because some perk is "good," it must therefore have a down side too. Now I realize that game play has to be balanced etc, but in real life, sometimes things are just good and don't have a down side.
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Post

Re: What about civilians?

#117
Letting different objects have different features -- including differing capabilities and different ratings for similar capabilities -- allows opportunities for interesting choices to emerge naturally. When there's more than one reasonable way to do something, that's when you actually get interesting choices to make.

Letting space stations have some ways that they're particularly good about handling civilians, and letting spaceships have other ways in which they are particularly good for handling civilians, creates interesting choices for players in how they interact with civilians. That's not gimping ships; it's insuring that space stations are just as much fun to play with when it comes to civilians, only in different ways.
I'm really not sure what you're getting at here Flat, isn't that what Research is all about? Some things you research will be more useful for stations, while others will be more useful for ships.

I sort of thought that in principle, the only differences between ships and stations is that stations are stationary and have no size limitation, while ships are mobile and have size limitations... And different default model algorithms. You should be able to throw any sized module you like, of any type you like, with any capabilities you like, on either ships or stations... How effective that will be is an entirely different matter. (And of course the AI would need to know better than to put thrusters on stations and whatnot)

As to market modules, I'm not sure how a mobile market is any less effective than a stationary one. The only real difference they would have is on-site storage volume, and even then...
storage compartments have spatial compression, and a ship whose hold has very high spatial compression could theoretically hold more than a much larger station whose holds have none.
You might be able to throw a "# of trader slots" on market modules which limits how many Players can sell goods from this market at a given time, but that seems like an arbitrary limitation for the sake of arbitrary limitation.
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Re: What about civilians?

#118
Flatfingers raises what I consider a good "balance" point than anything else. If ships can be equipped and setup to do the exact same things as stations with no downside, why would stations exist at all? This isn't so much an issue of taking one away to prop up another so much as it is if one can do everything the other can do without limitation then why would the other exist at all?

So I propose a fairly simple balancing factor. The Engine/Drive unit is a significant portion of hull mass in a ship. Stations do not have this limitation as they are immobile therefore ton for ton a station will simply be better at module specific things from a sheer throughput point of view. Basically every module on a station that is the exact same size as an equally designed ship could simply be bigger. Because barring a logic such as "Drive unit taking up significant space" you basically have a situation where if you design a station with x y and z parts and design a ship with the same parts and for all intents and purposes they are identical, why the hell would you ever make it as a station? Why would stations exist at all in fact?

Now in the context of Civilians and such a lot of what I would consider civilian modules such as marketplaces, hangars, leisure centres etc will need to be substantial in size to be of adequate (profitable) use. Say you build a mobile gym vs a stationary gym. One will be able to hold 5 people the other 30. For roughly the same space and not that much cheaper. Profit wise for the purpose of the module you simply aren't going to get as much return out of it therefore you have a balance. This balancing mechanic (Engine/Drive unit that is) should be more apparent the larger you scale up your designs. If you build a (random number) scale 500 ship with a hangar as a forward mobile base. It might be able to hold (another random number) 5 ships. But a station of equal size could hold 20. So the mobility has a cost. It has great benefits, but there is a cost. The obvious cost being that a good chunk of the available space is already taken up just to give you that mobility.
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Re: What about civilians?

#119
The one thing where stations are unlikely to be beaten is material storage.

It can be practically unlimited and that's a big plus when setting up any kind of production.

While there is no reason why you couldn't put a shipyard or factory on a ship, it's likely to eat a lot of mass / points that can't go towards typical shippy stuff like engines.
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: What about civilians?

#120
I'm thinking:

Lower class
- stay on the same planet they were born on
- quite poor, might not know about space and other civilisations
- might be ancient tribes/civilisations

Middle class
- relatively modest
- could relocate to other planets but mainly stay on the same planet
- might travel to tropical planets in cruise liners for holidays
- possibly travel on ships to mining planets where they might work

Higher class
- rich
- travel in private spaceships/fancy cruise liners (both would be well armed against pirates)
- they'd spend most of their time in space and on tropical worlds

Super class
- extremely rich
- may own multiple planets
- may own lower class slaves on planets
- travel in private spaceships/fancy cruise liners (both would be well armed against pirates)
- would have their own private army to protect them as they go through space

You could have missions where you have to rescue higher/middle/super class civilians that have been held hostage/captured by pirates. You may also have missions where you work for a super class civilian and you have to regain control over a slave world, kill another super class civilian that is their enemy, etc.

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