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Re: High speed travel

#16
Hadrianus wrote:I have to disagree with you here ThymineC. It does not really matter what engine and what size your engine is, there will always be the same top speed for any space ship, that is to say just below the speed of light. And I say just below, because if your ship has any mass whatsoever then you would need infinit energy to reach the speed of light.
You should read thymines posts more closely
ThymineC wrote: The way I believe most people are imagining it right now is that space produces drag against vessels, and so behaves like a fluidic medium that we'd be used to on Earth.
Under this assumption thymine is perfectly right.
Hadrianus wrote:That is why in nature; only massless particles reach the speed of light (electrons, photons etc)
Electrons have mass.
If you argue with science, do your science right.
Or put a disclaimer in it.
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Re: High speed travel

#17
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Hadrianus wrote:I have to disagree with you here ThymineC. It does not really matter what engine and what size your engine is, there will always be the same top speed for any space ship, that is to say just below the speed of light. And I say just below, because if your ship has any mass whatsoever then you would need infinit energy to reach the speed of light.
You should read thymines posts more closely
ThymineC wrote: The way I believe most people are imagining it right now is that space produces drag against vessels, and so behaves like a fluidic medium that we'd be used to on Earth.
Under this assumption thymine is perfectly right.
Hadrianus wrote:That is why in nature; only massless particles reach the speed of light (electrons, photons etc)
Electrons have mass.
If you argue with science, do your science right.
Or put a disclaimer in it.
Yes and you should read the post he was answering to more carefully!
Post

Re: High speed travel

#18
Hadrianus, the content of whatever post I was replying to has no bearing on the fact that I explicitly pointed out that I was working with the assumption that space behaved like a fluidic medium.

Also, electrons have a rest mass of 9.11*10^-31 kg if I recall correctly. And I do recall correctly because this isn't the first time that someone on the forums has tried to argue that electrons are massless. I forgot who it was the first time though.

Electrons do not ever travel at the speed of light - but sometimes they can travel faster than light in an optically dense medium, which causes them to release Cherenkov radiation which looks cool as hell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation
Last edited by ThymineC on Wed May 28, 2014 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post

Re: High speed travel

#19
ThymineC wrote:Hadrianus, the content of whatever post I was replying to has no bearing on the fact that I explicitly pointed out that I was working with the assumption that space behaved like a fluidic medium.

Also, electrons have a rear mass of 9.11*10^-31 kg if I recall correctly. And I do recall correctly because this isn't the first time that someone on the forums has tried to argue that electrons are massless. I forgot who it was the first time though.

Electrons do not ever travel at the speed of light - but sometimes they can travel faster than light in an optically dense medium, which causes them to release Cherenkov radiation which looks cool as hell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation
The point was that your assumption has no foothold in reality! Space is in no way like a fluid that is just as was said before nothing but a gamey mechanic.

As for the electrons, you are correct they have mass, for that reason I am doubtful that they can travel faster than the speed of light, despite your Wikipedia link. Give me some time to look into this a little more. (But this whole part of the discussion is a bit off topic, my bad if I caused it)

"Cherenkov radiation, also known as Vavilov-Cherenkov radiation, (also spelled Čerenkov or Cerenkov) is electromagnetic radiation emitted when a charged particle (such as an electron) passes through a dielectric medium at a speed greater than the phase velocity of light in that medium"

The article itself tells the story; I was referring to the speed limit as being that of light in a vacuum (300,000 km/s). Whilst the article talks about an electron moving through a medium faster than the speed of light through THAT MEDIUM. I might be wrong on this but from my understanding light travels slower through something like heavy water, than it would through a vacuum.
Post

Re: High speed travel

#20
Hadrianus wrote:The point was that your assumption has no foothold in reality! Space is in no way like a fluid that is just as was said before nothing but a gamey mechanic.
Obviously. But the fact of the matter is that Josh has not implemented flight mechanics in a realistic manner, so I'm simply stating the assumption that I believe he (and most of us) are making about space. It isn't realistic but it works with what Josh has built.

IIRC, Josh has implemented a drag coefficient constant that controls the motion of moving bodies through space, and if so, then assume that space behaves like an atmosphere, with variable top speed depending on max thrust.
As for the electrons, you are correct they have mass, for that reason I am doubtful that they can travel faster than the speed of light, despite your Wikipedia link. Give me some time to look into this a little more. (But this whole part of the discussion is a bit off topic, my bad if I caused it)
Oh my god. I'm not saying that electrons travel faster than the speed of light in a vacuum, c, I'm saying that they can travel faster than the phase velocity of light in an optically dense medium under certain conditions, and I'm sorry but I don't have the time nor the crayons to explain the idea any better than that.
Post

Re: High speed travel

#21
ThymineC wrote:
Hadrianus wrote:The point was that your assumption has no foothold in reality! Space is in no way like a fluid that is just as was said before nothing but a gamey mechanic.
Obviously. But the fact of the matter is that Josh has not implemented flight mechanics in a realistic manner, so I'm simply stating the assumption that I believe he (and most of us) are making about space. It isn't realistic but it works with what Josh has built.

IIRC, Josh has implemented a drag coefficient constant that controls the motion of moving bodies through space, and if so, then assume that space behaves like an atmosphere, with variable top speed depending on max thrust.
As for the electrons, you are correct they have mass, for that reason I am doubtful that they can travel faster than the speed of light, despite your Wikipedia link. Give me some time to look into this a little more. (But this whole part of the discussion is a bit off topic, my bad if I caused it)
Oh my god. I'm not saying that electrons travel faster than the speed of light in a vacuum, c, I'm saying that they can travel faster than the phase velocity of light in an optically dense medium under certain conditions, and I'm sorry but I don't have the time nor the crayons to explain the idea any better than that.
Read my entire post not just the first part of it!
Post

Re: High speed travel

#22
Daniel wrote:
Hadrianus wrote:Thus a top speed or a maximum speed for all ships would make perfect sense and would be in line with the laws of physics.
Would it? The force required to push a ship with a small mass is a lot less to push a larger ship. And then the higher speed you obtain, then that increases the mass of your ship, which in turn would affect the amount of force required to push it. So speed would vary by the ship: size of ship, and how powerful the engine is.

I could be wrong, though.

In all honesty, I think having a varying top speed would make gameplay that much more fun. I imagine fast ships intercepting larger trade vessels, etc.
My opinion is that if ships can travel between planets so easily they must be going at a speed close to that of light. I meant this as being the top or maximum speed that a ship could reach

I did not say however that all ships should have the same acceleration. In which case some of the small ships could gain up on some of the ships with larger mass.
Post

Re: High speed travel

#23
Hadrianus wrote: My opinion is that if ships can travel between planets so easily they must be going at a speed close to that of light. I meant this as being the top or maximum speed that a ship could reach

I did not say however that all ships should have the same acceleration. In which case some of the small ships could gain up on some of the ships with larger mass.
As ships can traverse distances of light-hours in a matter of minutes they are already going superluminal speeds.

So any talk about relativistic speed limits and realistic physics is already moot, as we dont have relativisitc speeds or realistic physics
Post

Re: High speed travel

#24
In all honesty, I'm fine with having varying top speeds, as I find it more fun. It also makes fighters more distinct as they can have faster speeds then capitals, even if its not the most realistic way. Oh, and having a consistent top speed was only to handle the technical restraints as the player would break the game by trying to accelerate to infinity. There could be other restraints to replace this like fuel and whatnot, this was the first thing that came to mind. But for game purposes, I would much rather have different top speeds.
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In Josh we trust.
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Re: High speed travel

#26
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Hadrianus wrote: My opinion is that if ships can travel between planets so easily they must be going at a speed close to that of light. I meant this as being the top or maximum speed that a ship could reach

I did not say however that all ships should have the same acceleration. In which case some of the small ships could gain up on some of the ships with larger mass.
As ships can traverse distances of light-hours in a matter of minutes they are already going superluminal speeds.

So any talk about relativistic speed limits and realistic physics is already moot, as we dont have relativisitc speeds or realistic physics
Light hours?! The distance between any two successive planets in our solar system is of light minutes, at least from what I know the distance between Mars and Earth is of approximately 20 light minutes.
Post

Re: High speed travel

#27
Hadrianus wrote: Light hours?! The distance between any two successive planets in our solar system is of light minutes, at least from what I know the distance between Mars and Earth is of approximately 20 light minutes.
Neptunes orbit is 30 Astronomical Units..
1 AU ~= 8.5 Light Minutes
So neptunes orbit = 30 AU * 8.5 LM = 255 LM = 4.25 Light Hours.

There are not only earth and mars
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Re: High speed travel

#28
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Hadrianus wrote: Light hours?! The distance between any two successive planets in our solar system is of light minutes, at least from what I know the distance between Mars and Earth is of approximately 20 light minutes.
Neptunes orbit is 30 Astronomical Units..
1 AU ~= 8.5 Light Minutes
So neptunes orbit = 30 AU * 8.5 LM = 255 LM = 4.25 Light Hours.

There are not only earth and mars

Yes well but you are assuming that an hour would be equal to 1 in game hour. That is rarely the case in most sandbox games. For example in Skyrim a day is 24 minutes. So one minute per each hour. If a similar case would be in LT wouldn’t that make the distance between Neptune and Uranus Traversable in a few minutes (a few in game hours)
Post

Re: High speed travel

#29
Hadrianus wrote:
My opinion is that if ships can travel between planets so easily they must be going at a speed close to that of light. I meant this as being the top or maximum speed that a ship could reach

I did not say however that all ships should have the same acceleration. In which case some of the small ships could gain up on some of the ships with larger mass.
LT space is small. Take a look at how close the asteroid fields are to the planet in the last dev video.
CodeDecoded wrote:In all honesty, I'm fine with having varying top speeds, as I find it more fun. It also makes fighters more distinct as they can have faster speeds then capitals, even if its not the most realistic way. Oh, and having a consistent top speed was only to handle the technical restraints as the player would break the game by trying to accelerate to infinity. There could be other restraints to replace this like fuel and whatnot, this was the first thing that came to mind. But for game purposes, I would much rather have different top speeds.
Well said. :clap:


Hadrianus, LT is not going to be a hardcore scientific space game. I'm sorry, it just won't be. A game like that would hardly be fun, anyway, unless it was all about exploration - and even then, it would be very difficult. Even Kerbal Space Program nicks the edge of reality all over the place - it's significantly simpler than real life.

Limit Theory hits about a 2 on the Mohs Scale of Science Fiction Hardness. Star Wars gets a 1, and Kerbal Space Program gets a 5.
EDIT: Nope, KSP gets a 4. I forgot about the time acceleration.
Last edited by Talvieno on Wed May 28, 2014 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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