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Re: April 9 dev log, why u no like asteroid belts?

#16
JoshParnell wrote:^^^ Can't stress this enough. Remember that LT is strongly based off of Freelancer. For those of us that loved FL, I think we would be quite dismayed to see 'realistic' system layouts. The structure of FL space made it fun, beautiful, and overall an awesome experience
Sometimes I could kiss you Mr Parnell. I will flirt with both Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen but my heart will always be with Limit Theory. :D :D :D :thumbup: :thumbup: :wave: (I refuse to use the jumping monkey but I'm sure you got the message).
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Re: April 9 dev log, why u no like asteroid belts?

#17
"If it doesn't work, change your frame of reference".

Natural structures don't "look" orderly like the 1st picture; the orbits in our solar system are actually quite out of the ecliptic (which you can appreciate by looking at the orbits for pluto and neptune, much less the extremely wild, eccentric orbits of planetoids like Sedna.) It's just that 2D projections of these orbits have been deliberately fudged to looked orderly on a plane, for human convenience.

This is what an outside visitor to our solar system (from Betelgeuse, let's say) would see: (though incomplete. There are probably "40-120" objects in existence that are comparable to Sedna.)
Image Image That's part of the reason why I expect most human structures (stations, shipyards, trade docks) to be on one ecliptic plane, while natural structures (as well as bases who want to remain hidden - military bases, pirate bases, hideouts, etc) may be far off the ecliptic. Both Freelancer and X do this by manual fudging by the designers, but I could expect some sort of proximity seeking/avoidance algorithm to procedurally generate this as well.
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Re: April 9 dev log, why u no like asteroid belts?

#18
Jimhsu:
With current technology, An outside observer MIGHT see jupiter and saturn's orbits.
Or, if they're lucky enough to lie on the same plane as our ecliptic with sufficient technology they may detect Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and maybe Neptune if they're really good.

Then their astronomer's might say "Palala-like planet discovered! Orbiting in the habitable zone of star C-587, 130 lightyears away.
The planet, called C-587-c is approximately twice the mass of Palala and takes 2 years to orbit their star.
Spectroscopy has revealed a nitrogen and oxygen rich atmosphere, which is possible evidence for life.
At least 7 other planets orbit C-587, The biggest of which is the gas giant C-587-e.
Scientists say that any life on C-587-c is likely to be simple single- or multi-cellular life, due to the relatively young age of the star and the increased solar activity G-class stars exhibit."

Comments
Nice to see my taxpayer dollars are being wasted on things like this! Let's try sorting out world hunger before we start looking for places we'll never be able to go!"
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Life on another planet? I wonder if they're looking at us too.
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. The only reason they'd be looking at us is if they want to wipe us out or enslave us
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. They probably wouldn't want to visit us! Palalans are such a terribly destructive species.
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. Did nobody read that any life there is likely to be "simple single- or multi-cellular"?
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. Maybe they're not even carbon based! Did you think about that?

.....
I should write a story 0.0
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Re: April 9 dev log, why u no like asteroid belts?

#19
jimhsu wrote:"If it doesn't work, change your frame of reference".

Natural structures don't "look" orderly like the 1st picture; the orbits in our solar system are actually quite out of the ecliptic (which you can appreciate by looking at the orbits for pluto and neptune, much less the extremely wild, eccentric orbits of planetoids like Sedna.) It's just that 2D projections of these orbits have been deliberately fudged to looked orderly on a plane, for human convenience.
That's part of the reason why I expect most human structures (stations, shipyards, trade docks) to be on one ecliptic plane, while natural structures (as well as bases who want to remain hidden - military bases, pirate bases, hideouts, etc) may be far off the ecliptic. Both Freelancer and X do this by manual fudging by the designers, but I could expect some sort of proximity seeking/avoidance algorithm to procedurally generate this as well.
I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that your statement isn't entirely true.
There is in fact a plane in which all major planets orbit the sun, the plane in which most planets' orbits are is called the Invariable Plane (this is the plane where the maximum inclination of planets is the lowest, we can also define a plane based on the sun's equator and the ecliptic, but even by using those planes the maximum inclination isn't higher than 8°), It is worth to notice that the highest inclination by a planet with this plane is not more than 6,34° (done by the planet Mercurius), since this is a relatively small inclination it is safe to assume that the Major planets are more or less positioned in this plane.
The same is true for the majority of the astroids found in the astroid belt.
It is worth to notice however that there are indeed exceptions, one example is the Haley's Comet which has an inclination of 162.3° with the ecliptic.
Another exception are the the objects that can be found in theKuiper belt (which includes pluto, and other dwarf planets), however the mean position of objects located in the kuiper belt still has an inclination of 1.86° with the ecliptic.
The reason for this can be found in the solar-system's origins, our solar system formed out of a cloud of gas and dust, at some point an external influence caused the cloud to start to contract and rotate, by contracting, the nebulae started to rotate faster, this caused the nebulae to flatten, creating a structure called a 'protoplanetary disc', out of this disc of rotating dust our planets were formed, this is thus the reason why the major planets are more or less in a plane.

I would also like to argue that human structures are certainly not aligned on an ecliptic plane, humans tend to pick to positions that are useful, best fitting for their purpose, or simply the most easiest/ cheap.
Based on this, you would expect cylindrical like alignment of structures around trade-lanes and Spherical structures to arise (because this would be the most efficient way to minimize the average distance to each building).
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Idiots. Idiots everywhere. ~Dr. Cha0zz
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Re: April 9 dev log, why u no like asteroid belts?

#22
jimhsu wrote:"If it doesn't work, change your frame of reference".

Natural structures don't "look" orderly like the 1st picture; the orbits in our solar system are actually quite out of the ecliptic (which you can appreciate by looking at the orbits for pluto and neptune, much less the extremely wild, eccentric orbits of planetoids like Sedna.) It's just that 2D projections of these orbits have been deliberately fudged to looked orderly on a plane, for human convenience.

This is what an outside visitor to our solar system (from Betelgeuse, let's say) would see: (though incomplete. There are probably "40-120" objects in existence that are comparable to Sedna.)
Image Image That's part of the reason why I expect most human structures (stations, shipyards, trade docks) to be on one ecliptic plane, while natural structures (as well as bases who want to remain hidden - military bases, pirate bases, hideouts, etc) may be far off the ecliptic. Both Freelancer and X do this by manual fudging by the designers, but I could expect some sort of proximity seeking/avoidance algorithm to procedurally generate this as well.

I know... :roll:
That's exactly my point. I never proposed that we play the game in a top-down perspective viewing a perfectly circular solar system.
My point was just that the DISTRIBUTION of planets and asteroids in the alpha videos of LT seemed completely and utterly random, from any perspective it looks as a uniform cloud of "stuff".
Even a chaotic solar system has visible structure to it, and is beautiful beacuse of it. There's nothing "more" beautiful about a uniform cloud of planets and asteroids.
Because they are closer together? Then just have many moons or planets in close orbits, achieves the same thing but keeping some sense of structure to the chaos.

It was like this in Freelancer too. Sure the game-space was based on square zones with interesting hotspots closeby (asteroid clouds, planets, etc). And they were static.
But it still had a structure to it. The sun was "over there", the planets had positions that suggested their orbits, the moons as well. It wasn't just a cloud of stuff.
Every planet had a reason for being where it was, it was immersive and believable despite the square zone restrictions.
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Re: April 9 dev log, why u no like asteroid belts?

#23
JoshParnell wrote:There is no obsession, only a preference. I prefer a non-realistic structure of space. I find it more compelling for gameplay and, overall, more visually interesting. It's a preference, nothing more and nothing less. I find your second picture a lot more interesting than the first.

Limit Theory has never been and will never be about realistic space. That was made very clear from the beginning!

In the grand scheme of things, though, the code that positions generated objects is tiny, trivial, and easily-modifiable. It is not 'lazy' that I have this preference, make no mistake, generating 'realistic' system layouts is 100% easy. A sin here, a cos there, that's about all there is to it. So I am sure we will be seeing plenty of realism mods shortly after release :)
DWMagus wrote:First, I'm pretty sure the reason why asteroids are the way they are currently is because that's what the spiritual predecessor uses.
^^^ Can't stress this enough. Remember that LT is strongly based off of Freelancer. For those of us that loved FL, I think we would be quite dismayed to see 'realistic' system layouts. The structure of FL space made it fun, beautiful, and overall an awesome experience :geek:

Do you still honestly prefer a random spherical cluster of objects instead of structured space?
Really? Even after seeing this the past few weeks? Because as much as i love LT, your visual aesthetic concepts and your ideas, i can't comprehend your logic or taste about this.
You would honestly still call what we see below "boring"?
Image Image Image
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Re: April 9 dev log, why u no like asteroid belts?

#24
Baleur wrote:Do you still honestly prefer a random spherical cluster of objects instead of structured space?
Really? Even after seeing this the past few weeks? Because as much as i love LT, your visual aesthetic concepts and your ideas, i can't comprehend your logic or taste about this.
You would honestly still call what we see below "boring"?
Where you got "random spherical cluster of objects" is completely beyond me.

The whole point of LT's system generation is 'structured space.'
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
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Re: April 9 dev log, why u no like asteroid belts?

#25
Damn, I forgot about this thread!

Cross-posting from Realistically-Sized Systems and Travel:
ThymineC wrote:Elite: Dangerous will feature asteroids located in rings around gas giants.

They also move and rotate!

I'm not suggesting this for LT, I'm just saying that this is cool, and a demonstration that it is actually possible with today's hardware. So maybe we can have this for LT2?

I should make clear that, in the above, I'm not arguing for asteroids to be located within planetary rings (nor am I arguing against it), I just want to show that it's apparently possible for today's hardware to support what appears to be thousands of asteroids at once that move and rotate (or at least rotate) - clearly E:D are up to some clever code wizardry, and perhaps we might find that code wizardry in future sequels.

Oh, and this footage gives a better view of the whole thing. Perhaps change "thousands of asteroids" to "millions of asteroids". That is some clever LOD stuff right there. It still needs polish, of course, but for an alpha you have to admit this is amazing.
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Re: April 9 dev log, why u no like asteroid belts?

#26
ThymineC wrote: I should make clear that, in the above, I'm not arguing for asteroids to be located within planetary rings (nor am I arguing against it), I just want to show that it's apparently possible for today's hardware to support what appears to be thousands of asteroids at once that move and rotate (or at least rotate) - clearly E:D are up to some clever code wizardry, and perhaps we might find that code wizardry in future sequels.

Oh, and this footage gives a better view of the whole thing. Perhaps change "thousands of asteroids" to "millions of asteroids". That is some clever LOD stuff right there. It still needs polish, of course, but for an alpha you have to admit this is amazing.
the wizardry could be that E:D does not need to store individual asteroids persistently.
in LT every asteroid has an tracked ore density map which needs to be stored.
whereas in E:D the asteroids can be completely removed from memory as soon as they get far enough away to be displayed as sprites.
from what i saw the asteroids in the belts are clustered in groups and those groups are repeted over the belt.
so asteroids are not independent objects but an subcomponent of an object that gets repeted over the belt.
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Re: April 9 dev log, why u no like asteroid belts?

#27
JoshParnell wrote:
Baleur wrote:Do you still honestly prefer a random spherical cluster of objects instead of structured space?
Really? Even after seeing this the past few weeks? Because as much as i love LT, your visual aesthetic concepts and your ideas, i can't comprehend your logic or taste about this.
You would honestly still call what we see below "boring"?
Where you got "random spherical cluster of objects" is completely beyond me.

The whole point of LT's system generation is 'structured space.'
Personally, I like the asteroid distribution in LT way more than rings. Nevertheless, I don't get the excessive discussion of a minor feature. So one game has rings, other doesn't. Are you telling Josh that he should fall in line with E:D's style when so much has been said about LT's distinctiveness from other space games forming the core of its appeal? At the end of the day, its his vision and his decision. :mrgreen:
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Re: April 9 dev log, why u no like asteroid belts?

#28
And please keep in mind that, as I said before, something like the distribution function of an object is a triviality that will take anybody just a few minutes to change :)
ThymineC wrote:I should make clear that, in the above, I'm not arguing for asteroids to be located within planetary rings (nor am I arguing against it), I just want to show that it's apparently possible for today's hardware to support what appears to be thousands of asteroids at once that move and rotate (or at least rotate) - clearly E:D are up to some clever code wizardry, and perhaps we might find that code wizardry in future sequels.

Oh, and this footage gives a better view of the whole thing. Perhaps change "thousands of asteroids" to "millions of asteroids". That is some clever LOD stuff right there. It still needs polish, of course, but for an alpha you have to admit this is amazing.
Well I never said it wasn't possible :D Infinity showed it in 2010..!

With hardware instancing and some more LOD tricks LT could certainly do similar things. Unfortunately hardware instancing raises the GL version requirement higher than I want it to go. I am still looking into how widely-supported it is, because if I can use it on most hardware without raising the hardware requirement I may still do so.
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
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Re: April 9 dev log, why u no like asteroid belts?

#29
JoshParnell wrote: With hardware instancing and some more LOD tricks LT could certainly do similar things. Unfortunately hardware instancing raises the GL version requirement higher than I want it to go. I am still looking into how widely-supported it is, because if I can use it on most hardware without raising the hardware requirement I may still do so.
link

maybe helpful.
a list submitted by the 33k playerbase of 0.AD to the devs of the game, for the very same purpose i guess
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Re: April 9 dev log, why u no like asteroid belts?

#30
JoshParnell wrote:With hardware instancing and some more LOD tricks LT could certainly do similar things. Unfortunately hardware instancing raises the GL version requirement higher than I want it to go. I am still looking into how widely-supported it is, because if I can use it on most hardware without raising the hardware requirement I may still do so.
Which GL version is it currently based on (so I know which demographic I should hate)?

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