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How far will ship design go? How different will ships be?

#1
Hi, I have a few questions that I did not find an answer for. I searched for ship design, and found some hits, but nothing that really addresses this.

I would like to know how far will Josh take the different ship designs? Will they really be different from one to the other?

One really major issue that I have seen on other games of this kind, is that ships are very similar one to the other. Usually, what the games do when they give you a bigger ship, is just to add more HPs, more weapon hardpoints, more energy, etc. Just up the numbers a bit. That sounds good in theory, but what we end up is with just a big fighter.

For example, we have a soldier with an M-16 machine gun. And to make the soldier tougher, we give him armor, wheels, and make him a tank. Awesome! But to make him more powerful, we give the tank 6 x M-16machine guns... Ok? Then we want to make it tougher, and we make a battleship! Damn huge and tough!! and we give it... 100 x M-16 machine guns... Er... Sure, it becomes more powerful, but those weapons are not fit for a tank, or a destroyer. They are fit for a soldier. That is seen a lot though on these games... More than expected.

Unfortunately, I even saw some of that on one of Josh's videos. The one where he traded a fighter for a bomber. The bomber simply has more hardpoints than the fighter. Sure it will be more powerful, but it is simply a fighter with more weapons. I was a bit worried when he showed the battleship as well. Lots of lasers, but they looked just like the lasers on the fighters. I hope we will not get a battleship with 100 M-16 machine guns...

Will there be different size hardpoints for different weapons? Will the large weapons have trouble hitting smaller targets? I really like the way it is done in EVE. It makes sure that no weapon is the best, and no ship is the best. That would make destroyers awesome against big ships, but weak against fighter/bomber waves and make fighter escorts a necessity.

The other way around it would be with ship bonuses. In the fighter and bomber examples, we could make the fighter have 2 hardpoints, and the bomber have just 1 hardpoint. But to make the bomber a bomber, we give it a bonus to missile launchers:

x10 missile damage (10 times the damage)
x2 reload time (fires twice as slow, so the damage becomes x5)
x4 missile range (4 times the range!)
x0.5 weapon speed (missiles are slower, so they only get 2 times the range in the end)
x3 missile size (if we have that in the game... To make them look like torpedoes)
x3 missile HPs (if they can be shot down, they should be tougher to bring down)
x0.25 Maneuverability (so they are great against large ships, but weak against fighters)

Something like that. So the bomber is no longer a slow fighter with more hardpoints, but an specialized bomber to bring down tough targets from long range (x2 the range, x5 the damage).

That's just my thought. I just don't want to see ship designs like we see in other games, that are simply blown up fighters. I want to see real ships with very different roles. Ships that feel and play different one from the other. Not just "woo!! more shields and 1 more weapon!!!". That's my dream.

So any ideas how the ship design will work in LT?
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Re: How far will ship design go? How different will ships be

#2
Afaik ship designs will be avoiding your 100xm16 example. With different hardpoints and larger guns slower in tracking.
And that thing with the videos look like to be reinforcing your fears
It is all very veerry wip.

Have no fear young acolyte.
Our god of code will not make it so simplicistic and lame.
His genius will enlight us and we will defy all other space games after our puny mortal eyes will see his trancendent creation of.
All hail our god!
Hail josh!
(Where have i left my virgin blood..?)
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Re: How far will ship design go? How different will ships be

#3
Kalmander wrote:So any ideas how the ship design will work in LT?
Not as written in stone. =)

But the overall issue has come up before...
Balancing small vs large ships
Balancing Ship Design and Faction Diversity

All the fiddly bits will have to be decided when we (that means Josh =) get closer to a working game where things can be tested and balanced.
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: How far will ship design go? How different will ships be

#5
Kalmander wrote: The other way around it would be with ship bonuses. In the fighter and bomber examples, we could make the fighter have 2 hardpoints, and the bomber have just 1 hardpoint. But to make the bomber a bomber, we give it a bonus to missile launchers:

x10 missile damage (10 times the damage)
x2 reload time (fires twice as slow, so the damage becomes x5)
x4 missile range (4 times the range!)
x0.5 weapon speed (missiles are slower, so they only get 2 times the range in the end)
x3 missile size (if we have that in the game... To make them look like torpedoes)
x3 missile HPs (if they can be shot down, they should be tougher to bring down)
x0.25 Maneuverability (so they are great against large ships, but weak against fighters)

Something like that. So the bomber is no longer a slow fighter with more hardpoints, but an specialized bomber to bring down tough targets from long range (x2 the range, x5 the damage).
Well, I beg to differ. Arbitrary bonuses are just sloppy design to me.

I think the distinction between ship types should be through the type of mounted equipment, in this case the hardpoints. The bomber would not have a launcher for multiple small and agile missiles, but a launcher for an entirely different missile type (big and relatively slow, but having a massive warhead). The difference is that you would not purchase the same missile type and have it do magically 10x the damage on the bomber.

The disadvantages would then follow from having less room for engines on the ship, so the bomber has to make do with less speed. Or be bigger from the start, so there is a penalty to agility (assuming bigger ships are less agile).

About the ship design, in an early update video Josh showed the beginnings of a ship designer where the player could kitbash his ship together from various geometric shapes. For the NPCs, the kitbashing is done by some procedural generation algorithm.
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Re: How far will ship design go? How different will ships be

#7
Rabiator wrote:
Kalmander wrote: The other way around it would be with ship bonuses. In the fighter and bomber examples, we could make the fighter have 2 hardpoints, and the bomber have just 1 hardpoint. But to make the bomber a bomber, we give it a bonus to missile launchers:

x10 missile damage (10 times the damage)
x2 reload time (fires twice as slow, so the damage becomes x5)
x4 missile range (4 times the range!)
x0.5 weapon speed (missiles are slower, so they only get 2 times the range in the end)
x3 missile size (if we have that in the game... To make them look like torpedoes)
x3 missile HPs (if they can be shot down, they should be tougher to bring down)
x0.25 Maneuverability (so they are great against large ships, but weak against fighters)

Something like that. So the bomber is no longer a slow fighter with more hardpoints, but an specialized bomber to bring down tough targets from long range (x2 the range, x5 the damage).
Well, I beg to differ. Arbitrary bonuses are just sloppy design to me.

I think the distinction between ship types should be through the type of mounted equipment, in this case the hardpoints. The bomber would not have a launcher for multiple small and agile missiles, but a launcher for an entirely different missile type (big and relatively slow, but having a massive warhead). The difference is that you would not purchase the same missile type and have it do magically 10x the damage on the bomber.

The disadvantages would then follow from having less room for engines on the ship, so the bomber has to make do with less speed. Or be bigger from the start, so there is a penalty to agility (assuming bigger ships are less agile).

About the ship design, in an early update video Josh showed the beginnings of a ship designer where the player could kitbash his ship together from various geometric shapes. For the NPCs, the kitbashing is done by some procedural generation algorithm.
Oh, I agree. This is just another way it could be handled. I would prefer to have an actual torpedo launcher that has all those bonuses, and it can be mounted on a bomber. It makes the game much nicer, and more... Real, I guess? Or more concise at least. It probably would mean more work though... Josh would have to design weapons for each different ship role for example. But it would definitely feel better to have specialized weapons :) As long as we have ships that play very differently in each role, I'm good.
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Re: How far will ship design go? How different will ships be

#8
Kalmander wrote: Oh, I agree. This is just another way it could be handled. I would prefer to have an actual torpedo launcher that has all those bonuses, and it can be mounted on a bomber. It makes the game much nicer, and more... Real, I guess? Or more concise at least. It probably would mean more work though... Josh would have to design weapons for each different ship role for example. But it would definitely feel better to have specialized weapons :) As long as we have ships that play very differently in each role, I'm good.
You know that josh does not "design" anything in this game?
It is all generated by his algorithms.
If a missle launcher happens to be good for a bomber it is coincidence not design.
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Re: How far will ship design go? How different will ships be

#12
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Kalmander wrote: Oh, I agree. This is just another way it could be handled. I would prefer to have an actual torpedo launcher that has all those bonuses, and it can be mounted on a bomber. It makes the game much nicer, and more... Real, I guess? Or more concise at least. It probably would mean more work though... Josh would have to design weapons for each different ship role for example. But it would definitely feel better to have specialized weapons :) As long as we have ships that play very differently in each role, I'm good.
You know that josh does not "design" anything in this game?
It is all generated by his algorithms.
If a missle launcher happens to be good for a bomber it is coincidence not design.
Ah yes, true to an extent, but we still have different weapons, they cannot be totally procedural generated. I've seen pulse lasers, missiles, and Josh mentioned railguns. So they are procedural generated within certain parameters. So we could have light missile launchers, and torpedo launchers as separate weapons.

I do not think that regular missile launchers should be variable enough that you could end up with one as powerful as torpedoes. I mean, if that happens, then I just get that weapon, pop them onto my fastest scout ship, and have a squadron of the fastest ships in the game that are also able to take down any capital ship... Would be weird to say the least...
Post

Re: How far will ship design go? How different will ships be

#13
Kalmander wrote: I do not think that regular missile launchers should be variable enough that you could end up with one as powerful as torpedoes. I mean, if that happens, then I just get that weapon, pop them onto my fastest scout ship, and have a squadron of the fastest ships in the game that are also able to take down any capital ship... Would be weird to say the least...
If it has enough firepower to harm capships it will have weight and size fo high for your scoutship to remain a scoutship and the magazine size will be 1 and speed veeeery low if it does fit on such a small ship.

Its only a question of balancing the different stats
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Re: How far will ship design go? How different will ships be

#14
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Kalmander wrote: I do not think that regular missile launchers should be variable enough that you could end up with one as powerful as torpedoes. I mean, if that happens, then I just get that weapon, pop them onto my fastest scout ship, and have a squadron of the fastest ships in the game that are also able to take down any capital ship... Would be weird to say the least...
If it has enough firepower to harm capships it will have weight and size fo high for your scoutship to remain a scoutship and the magazine size will be 1 and speed veeeery low if it does fit on such a small ship.

Its only a question of balancing the different stats
That's cool. So the question would be, how many stats will each weapon have? I know the standard ones like damage, rate of fire, range, etc will be there. But will it also balance mass, ammo capacity, size, power requirements (to install), power consumption (to fire), HPs (if they can be damaged?), etc. I mean, depending on the amount of characteristics planned for the weapons, this would not be a problem. It would be pretty awesome actually :D
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Re: How far will ship design go? How different will ships be

#15
Kalmander wrote:
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Kalmander wrote: I do not think that regular missile launchers should be variable enough that you could end up with one as powerful as torpedoes. I mean, if that happens, then I just get that weapon, pop them onto my fastest scout ship, and have a squadron of the fastest ships in the game that are also able to take down any capital ship... Would be weird to say the least...
If it has enough firepower to harm capships it will have weight and size fo high for your scoutship to remain a scoutship and the magazine size will be 1 and speed veeeery low if it does fit on such a small ship.

Its only a question of balancing the different stats
That's cool. So the question would be, how many stats will each weapon have? I know the standard ones like damage, rate of fire, range, etc will be there. But will it also balance mass, ammo capacity, size, power requirements (to install), power consumption (to fire), HPs (if they can be damaged?), etc. I mean, depending on the amount of characteristics planned for the weapons, this would not be a problem. It would be pretty awesome actually :D
Long story short:
There will be lots of stats and it will be awesome ^^
The statscollection that missle weapons will likely have as i read them out of countless forum posts

Damage
Flight speed
Hardpoint size
Magazine size
Reload speed
Missle size (large hardpoint with lots of small missles ^^)
Range
Turn rate
Guiding system
Rate of fire
Ammunition needs (if the military supply approach will be used)
Additional modifiers (mirv, proximity detonating etc...)

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