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Re: What happens if you game spawns Sentient A.I?

#46
I've enjoyed this back and forth its helped sharpen my perspective :), thanks.
Cornflakes_91 wrote:What does give you tge idea of "sentience is infinite"? Its an emergent feature of a finite amount of chemical reactions running in a finite amount of neural cells. Maybe sentience is huge (if we count all possible interactions of all neurons in a brain) but nevertheless infinite.

Besides of its finity it can completely simulated in a powerful enough computer.

There is nothing that cannot exist in a classical conputer. Imagine a neuromorphic computer which replicates a real brain but uses pure electricity or photons instead of electrochemistry!

There is nothing impossible, only not yet passed challenges.
Did you mean nevertheless finite (otherwise you're agreeing with me?).

Everything is possible, yes. Whether we are talking about an infinite subtleties in each and every moment or the wider scope of anything, everything, being possible.

When you argue anything that can be conceived is possible, then you have to conceive it first. If its not yet been conceived how can it ever be defined? Its not defined how can you program for it?

Again you're in a loop. Until sentience is redefined to mean something along the lines of: The ability to think at the 'current' level of human awareness, then you'll never have a sentient AI. Even then it'll be outdated as soon as its made.

Most people don't really realise the value of having a limitless set of possibilities in front of them, but its not something that can be copied or anticipated as its not happened yet.
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Re: What happens if you game spawns Sentient A.I?

#47
Slymodi wrote:
Grumblesaur wrote:Image
That last one got me, I started shaking, my CPU heating, my RAM trying to create this set, I cold not do this. :(

~Sly
About the last quote..they actually changed the definition of a set so said quote won't create a paradox..
Read it on a math book of some sorts during my studies hehe hmm or was it a set that contains only elements that are not in a set...lot :lol:
Wait..it was about groups not sets..face palm! :wtf:
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Re: What happens if you game spawns Sentient A.I?

#49
Cornflakes_91 wrote:You said concius, not human. And even if its not phsyically, if its mind is human, it is human. Im not differenting based upon physical "humanness" and psychical humanness. If it thinks human, it is human
You're wrong.
I'll give an easier example for you.
I'm born in Sweden. I have Swedish ancestors. My DNA can be traced to Sweden as my closest relatives. My birth location was Sweden. Politically I am a Swedish citizen from birth.

If I now move to Japan, start to eat Japanese food, adopt the Japanese culture, speak Japanese and behave as Japanese people, does that make me Japanese?
No it doesn't. One can never "become" something one isn't. I'm Swedish and I will never be anything else.

Similarly, i'm Human and will never be anything else.
An android is an android, it will never be part of the Human species no matter how it acts, how it behaves, what it itself thinks, or how similar it is both mentally AND physiologically.

I appreciate your philosophy, I really do. I love those thought experiments too. But in this case you simply can't argue away the facts.
Human is a definition of species. It is something one is born into, a machine or artificial lifeform can never become Human by the very definition of the word.
Now, if you propose we change the definition of "Human", then i ask you, what purpose does language serve if we change what the words represent everytime we wish them to represent something else?
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Re: What happens if you game spawns Sentient A.I?

#50
Baleur wrote:
Cornflakes_91 wrote:You said concius, not human. And even if its not phsyically, if its mind is human, it is human. Im not differenting based upon physical "humanness" and psychical humanness. If it thinks human, it is human
You're wrong.
I'll give an easier example for you.
I'm born in Sweden. I have Swedish ancestors. My DNA can be traced to Sweden as my closest relatives. My birth location was Sweden. Politically I am a Swedish citizen from birth.

If I now move to Japan, start to eat Japanese food, adopt the Japanese culture, speak Japanese and behave as Japanese people, does that make me Japanese?
No it doesn't. One can never "become" something one isn't. I'm Swedish and I will never be anything else.

Similarly, i'm Human and will never be anything else.
An android is an android, it will never be part of the Human species no matter how it acts, how it behaves, what it itself thinks, or how similar it is both mentally AND physiologically.
Actually it is entirely possible, and even highly likely, that an immigrant, immersing themselves in the culture and language of their new country, would come to view themselves as a citizen of that country, and they can legally apply for and obtain citizenship in their new country if they so choose. In your example, yes, you would become Japanese. Of course, you can't change your ancestry or the location of your birth, but it's entirely reasonable, even expected, to begin to identify yourself as a Japanese person in that circumstance.

Wouldn't it make just as much sense for a truly self-aware machine intelligence, having been created by human "parents", and being subjected to our culture and language, to seek to obtain the same legal rights and citizenship that we enjoy purely because our parents were made of meat?

I think that's an entirely plausible scenario.
Baleur wrote:I appreciate your philosophy, I really do. I love those thought experiments too. But in this case you simply can't argue away the facts.
Human is a definition of species. It is something one is born into, a machine or artificial lifeform can never become Human by the very definition of the word.
Now, if you propose we change the definition of "Human", then i ask you, what purpose does language serve if we change what the words represent everytime we wish them to represent something else?
Now, as for your second point; Of course you can expand the definition of human. Hell, if all you're worried about is the language, you've actually come a few millennia too late.

Many languages, and especially English, are constantly under a process of change. They grow and develop, words are adopted from different languages, become distorted by some ghastly portmanteau process, or are even made up entirely just to suit some new circumstance or technology or jargon that no-one's ever had to be able to describe before. And if that's not all, words can simply fall in and out of vogue, or have their meanings torn away by semantic change.

Case in point, due to common usage of the word "literally", many dictionaries have recently added a new definition that is literally (har) completely opposite to the original definition.
literally
ˈlɪt(ə)rəli/ - adverb: literally

1.
in a literal manner or sense; exactly.
"the driver took it literally when asked to go straight over the roundabout"

2.
used for emphasis while not being literally true.
"I have received literally thousands of letters"
And that's okay, that's brilliant, because our language is constantly evolving with us, and that serves us much better than some unchanging, static thing that couldn't keep up with the times. Hell, go back in time two hundred years and try to have this conversation about artificial intelligence with an English-speaking person; You would have to teach them so many new words to describe all the new concepts, it may as well be a new language.

Anyway, I won't insult you by bluntly telling you you're wrong, but as you can see, I categorically disagree with the points you've put forth.

Cheers, :thumbup: :wave:
- The Snark Knight

"Look upward, and share the wonders I've seen."
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Re: What happens if you game spawns Sentient A.I?

#51
A language not undergoing change is a language without a driving force, i.e., speakers. A language without speakers is an extinct language.
Ergo, an unchanging language is an extinct language.

And then you have constructed languages like Esperanto or Ido or Interlingua which are, in concept, extremely useful and a good idea from a utilitarian perspective, but cannot survive because they have no native speakers to begin with. They are stillborn, essentially. You cannot remove the human element from language or try to produce a language artificially. Humanity consists of change, and the defiance thereof. By the nature of you calling out the absurdity of the change in words over time, Baleur, you are recognizing a thing that, if the AI could recognize it too, would make the AI "human."

We're taught/hardwired to be logical about things. We will take what information we have and make a decision based on that. Sometimes we make a bad decision, but it can still be based on some degree of logic. So too could an AI make the decision that having the word "human" mean both "sharing characteristics of humans" and "homo sapiens" is absolutely silly, but as per linguistic convention, the AI would recognize (as we do here) that the change will continue to happen.

Additionally, I might add that if you're ever debating philosophy, opening your argument with "you're wrong" is bad form. For one, you can't be wrong when dealing with philosophy, because philosophy isn't strictly based on hard facts. It's a lot of sweeping generalizations, thought experiments, logical and ethical dilemmas, and airy, out-of-context quotations from old dead men. Two, you shouldn't need to declare your opponent wrong because the facts and/or rhetoric of your argument should be strong enough to declare that by themselves.

Essentially, you don't tell someone they're wrong -- you show them.

I agree with Just Ice, mainly because he pulled a linguistic argument out and linguistic study fascinates me. But also because I don't agree with how you're saying that something that was not originally human can never be human. Saying such smacks of telling a chef that he can never be anything other than a chef, when already had the chef likely been something else (for example, a child, a student, etc.). These are not "hard" changes, of course. The chef's physical manifestation has always been humanoid, it has always been flesh. But where the changes occurred was his mind.

The AI would be similar, always being stored within a robotic body of sorts, but undergoing the same sorts of mental changes that an organic person would undergo. If the AI is truly sentient and self-aware (no doubt from some miracle of programming, but this whole conversation is theoretical anyway), then I don't see why it wouldn't be "human."

If you could transfer a human mind to a computer, and the computer still communicated and thought like the human mind did, would it still be that person? And would it be so different if we built a mind from scratch inside a computer?
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Re: What happens if you game spawns Sentient A.I?

#52
Just_Ice_au wrote:
Baleur wrote:
Cornflakes_91 wrote:You said concius, not human. And even if its not phsyically, if its mind is human, it is human. Im not differenting based upon physical "humanness" and psychical humanness. If it thinks human, it is human
You're wrong.
I'll give an easier example for you.
I'm born in Sweden. I have Swedish ancestors. My DNA can be traced to Sweden as my closest relatives. My birth location was Sweden. Politically I am a Swedish citizen from birth.

If I now move to Japan, start to eat Japanese food, adopt the Japanese culture, speak Japanese and behave as Japanese people, does that make me Japanese?
No it doesn't. One can never "become" something one isn't. I'm Swedish and I will never be anything else.

Similarly, i'm Human and will never be anything else.
An android is an android, it will never be part of the Human species no matter how it acts, how it behaves, what it itself thinks, or how similar it is both mentally AND physiologically.
Actually it is entirely possible, and even highly likely, that an immigrant, immersing themselves in the culture and language of their new country, would come to view themselves as a citizen of that country, and they can legally apply for and obtain citizenship in their new country if they so choose. In your example, yes, you would become Japanese. Of course, you can't change your ancestry or the location of your birth, but it's entirely reasonable, even expected, to begin to identify yourself as a Japanese person in that circumstance.

Wouldn't it make just as much sense for a truly self-aware machine intelligence, having been created by human "parents", and being subjected to our culture and language, to seek to obtain the same legal rights and citizenship that we enjoy purely because our parents were made of meat?

I think that's an entirely plausible scenario.
Yeah i agree with you on the legal, citizenship and in terms of how an entity views itself. Of course a person can view themselves (and being viewed by others) as a Japanese person in that example. But that's just the perspective. It can never change the core hard "facts" of wether a person is born/first_citizen_of_CountryName/dna_ancestry to a certain country, area or culture.
That machine intelligence, likewise, would never be able to become human. Since everything would just be a perception (even if every human in the world accepts it as one of their own). The core hard facts (the harsh reality, if you will) will never change, the facts that the "parents" would never be real parents (the mother not having given birth to it, it not being the biological offspring of the mother's egg and the father's sperm), nor would it ever have the same brain chemistry, neuron patterns and physiology as a human being.

I suppose i'm discussing it in terms of "flesh and bone", different ways of looking at the same conundrum, but i suppose we both come to the same conclusion.
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Re: What happens if you game spawns Sentient A.I?

#53
Baleur wrote:Yeah i agree with you on the legal, citizenship and in terms of how an entity views itself. Of course a person can view themselves (and being viewed by others) as a Japanese person in that example. But that's just the perspective. It can never change the core hard "facts" of wether a person is born/first_citizen_of_CountryName/dna_ancestry to a certain country, area or culture.
But here we are at the core of the issue. Because perspective is exactly what this all is about. While you're right that I can't change who my birth parents are, and where my place of birth is, who is to say that these are the relevant "core hard facts"? Why shouldn't "how a person view themselves (and is being viewed by others)" be the "core hard fact" that matters? You can give your reasons why you assume that the former are the "core hard facts", but not the latter. And you'd presumably find many people who would agree with you on this view. But you can not take this view (your "perspective") as if it were a law of nature, or a law of god.
Baleur wrote:That machine intelligence, likewise, would never be able to become human. Since everything would just be a perception (even if every human in the world accepts it as one of their own). The core hard facts (the harsh reality, if you will) will never change, the facts that the "parents" would never be real parents (the mother not having given birth to it, it not being the biological offspring of the mother's egg and the father's sperm)
Again, you're setting your own perspective as if it were absolute. You're surely familiar with the concept that "parenthood" is not an absolute. There's biological parenthood, there's social parenthood, and there may be many other types of parenthood as well. Again, who is to decide that of all these only biological parenthood can be called "real"? I for one can assure you that social relations are no less "real" than biological/genetical relations.

So again, you're setting your own perspective—indeed your own biologistic bias, if you will—absolute.
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Re: What happens if you game spawns Sentient A.I?

#54
Hello, this is my first post in the forums.
Though my account has been made a long time ago, this interesting discussion has pulled my over the line.
Before I start, Great game Josh! Been reading your dev log since day one.

The problem here is that you cannot answer on biology or psychology alone, if you understand what makes us humans the answer is simpler than you might expect.
So you should ask yourself what a human is:
A human is a two legged hominide that has an advanced brain, capable of abstract thinking, language, introspection, problemsolving en emotions.
they are very social creatures who are very skilled at communication to self express and exchange ideas. This leads to traditions, rituals, values to make their extremely complex societies work.

their biological features are:
- two feet
- primate
- their physical appearance
- emotions

their mental features are:
- abstract thinking
- language
- introspection
- problemsolving
- forming of social groups and values/laws

so the conditions for a being to be a human are: it must look like a human and behave like one.

the "word" human is irrelevant, because we can call anything what we like ( I everyone starts stating that a cat is a chicken, doesn't mean that a cat and a chicken are the same thing)
there is just the convenience that we are called human, calling something else the same because we think it is the same doesn't make it the same.

So can an AI be sentient or self aware: maybe.
Does it make it human: NO, totally not.
Even if it thinks the same: Not even then.

A machine/AI can fake an emotion, it doesn't really feel that emotion.
when we are sad, we feel sad. We are not only sad because we cry or look sad.
of an AI would cry because a certain parameter had met it's crying condition doesn't mean that if feels sad, it's just creating tears and nothing more.
If I shoot a robot down with a bullet will it feel actual pain, or are there just some conditions triggered to fake pain?
That's the real issue, you can program and fake a lot of things to make it look like a human, but it doesn't make it one.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Mp35R--Jrmg
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Re: What happens if you game spawns Sentient A.I?

#55
Tsjernobyl wrote: If I shoot a robot down with a bullet will it feel actual pain, or are there just some conditions triggered to fake pain?
That's the real issue, you can program and fake a lot of things to make it look like a human, but it doesn't make it one.
Pain is a conditional sensation that is triggered when there is some damage being done to the body. If you program a robot to react defensively when it is damaged, you have effectively programmed it to feel pain. Whether it's biological or mechanical, it's still "pain" because pain is not an abstract concept as you would argue it to be. Pain has a function, and such a function is applicable to both living creatures and machines driven by artificial intelligence.
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Re: What happens if you game spawns Sentient A.I?

#56
That's the real issue, you can program and fake a lot of things to make it look like a human, but it doesn't make it one.
Conjecture:
Assume someone would create an AI whose behavior is indistinguishable from a humans. Assume at the same time you have a human whose brain exists as a digitized engram set. Now place both in the same hardware (be it an artifical shell or an artifical organic body). What makes the human engram set human in your opinion? It's history?

As of now, any attempts at artificial intelligence are severely lacking in all respects. But if you managed to make one that emulates being human with acceptable accuracy, any kind of division would be a purely artifical one - you'd technically discriminate the AI based on its synthetic origins.

As far as a few of your suggested features go:
- emotions
- abstract thinking
- language
- introspection
- problemsolving
- forming of social groups and values/laws
...you need to look no further than a decent psychological handbook. There are plenty of humans that are damaged in this department. Hell, I'm suffering from a personality disorder myself, which screws with my values, social behavior, introspection and partially even my language*. But all of this doesn't make me less human. I'm a strange human, maybe, but I'm definitely as human as they come.

* = At least that part has improved somewhat.

IMHO, defining "being human" through "acting human" needs to incorporate a lot of leeway, as the human psyche is a rather varied thing. Defining "being human" through biological characteristics will only work as long as we remain bound to our original bodies.

Also, if someone looks and acts 100% human - what the heck would I care about his or her origins? I judge people by what they do, not where they came from.
Hardenberg was my name
And Terra was my nation
Deep space is my dwelling place
The stars my destination
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Re: What happens if you game spawns Sentient A.I?

#57
Hardenberg wrote:
That's the real issue, you can program and fake a lot of things to make it look like a human, but it doesn't make it one.
Conjecture:
Assume someone would create an AI whose behavior is indistinguishable from a humans. Assume at the same time you have a human whose brain exists as a digitized engram set. Now place both in the same hardware (be it an artifical shell or an artifical organic body). What makes the human engram set human in your opinion? It's history?

As of now, any attempts at artificial intelligence are severely lacking in all respects. But if you managed to make one that emulates being human with acceptable accuracy, any kind of division would be a purely artifical one - you'd technically discriminate the AI based on its synthetic origins.
Isn't this essentially the Turing Test?
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Re: What happens if you game spawns Sentient A.I?

#58
Hardenberg wrote: As of now, any attempts at artificial intelligence are severely lacking in all respects. But if you managed to make one that emulates being human with acceptable accuracy, any kind of division would be a purely artifical one - you'd technically discriminate the AI based on its synthetic origins.

[...]

Also, if someone looks and acts 100% human - what the heck would I care about his or her origins? I judge people by what they do, not where they came from.
Quoted for agreement
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Re: What happens if you game spawns Sentient A.I?

#59
Grumblesaur wrote:Isn't this essentially the Turing Test?
The Turing Test has one important limitation:
The interrogator is limited to using the responses to written questions in order to make the determination.


It's the same principle, but I do suggest greater scrutiny. I need a bit more of convincing to be convinced. ;)
Hardenberg was my name
And Terra was my nation
Deep space is my dwelling place
The stars my destination

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