Return to “General”

Post

Re: Abandoned ships

#31
The other thing is, we can utilize time skips. Josh already has a fast way of simulating the universe. If the player ejects, we can simply do a fade-out/fade-in of the player being on the closest station, and time passes based on either how far out the player was or some sort of other regard.

Don't penalize the player, and don't make them wait so that we're not impinging upon the player's ability to play the game.
Image
Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
Post

Re: Abandoned ships

#32
DWMagus wrote:The other thing is, we can utilize time skips. Josh already has a fast way of simulating the universe. If the player ejects, we can simply do a fade-out/fade-in of the player being on the closest station, and time passes based on either how far out the player was or some sort of other regard.

Don't penalize the player, and don't make them wait so that we're not impinging upon the player's ability to play the game.
Right. Have the rescue crews or whatever, there just doesn't need to be a simulation of said rescue.
Post

Re: Abandoned ships

#33
Karrade wrote:I didn't bring up realism, the guy I was quoting did, that was in response to him.
Moi? I believe you're mistaken. I didn't bring up realism, I brought up (just like the other guys) AI motivation. And this is a critical point, because all you were bringing up was (is) random behaviour.
Karrade wrote:1 in 100 chance the AI successful ejects or simply dies in the ship.
See, you're doing it again.

The thing about LT is—and you need to appreciate this—that this is not how it works. NPCs will act upon their motivations. They will not throw dice. Usually in a game there's a random mechanism simulating the outcome of AI decisions, by using a statistical analysis of all possible outcomes and assigning a probability to each outcome, and then let the AI throw a die. For the player this looks like X% of NPCs they come across will have made decision A (ejecting), and Y% will have made decision B (not ejecting) in the same situation.

But this is not how LT will work. Its core philosophy is that NPC decisions will derive from the reasoning of the AI, not from a '1 in 100 chance'. There's no such thing as a '1 in 100 chance' in LT. There's only the decision of an AI, based on its motivations, goals, needs, etc—and based on the AI's simulation of its own future (see the devlogs).

Thus it is of no use at all to talk about chances, or probability, or random in this context. The game will not use any of that stuff. You need to talk about possible motivations, goals, needs, etc. of the AI. But don't mistake these for 'realism'. The motivations etc. don't need to be 'realistic' in RealLife™, but they need to be there.

In short: realism is a red herring. But random actions are explicitly not a part of LT, they go against its core philosophy. You need to think in terms of 'what motivates the AI to take an action' (for instance abandoning a ship).

Then we have a meaningful debate.
Post

Re: Abandoned ships

#34
Commander McLane wrote:
Karrade wrote:I didn't bring up realism, the guy I was quoting did, that was in response to him.
Moi? I believe you're mistaken. I didn't bring up realism, I brought up (just like the other guys) AI motivation. And this is a critical point, because all you were bringing up was (is) random behaviour.
Motivation is realism, asking for detail is certainly not abstraction.

Not dying is a powerful motivator. Death is an even more powerful motivator for an empty ship.

Let's list some not dying and dead reasons if it'll help:

1, Hull is breached, losing air/fuel.
2, Pirates outnumber trader 3 to 1 and tell trader to bail. AI makes the call to run/fight or comply.
3, Engines gone, no good sitting here waiting to die.
4, Pilot killed.
5, Ship gets emp'd or the equivalent, systems damaged/dead, hull and cargo in tact.
6, Out of fuel.
7, A Bad Collision or really heavy damage in a single shot/missile. (Low Hull Integrity) Pilots are often trained to bail when this happens, they don't sit around thinking about it as they don't have time when its their life in their hands. This covers the point about being at 5% Hull as well.
8, Lost control of ship. - Insert any reason you like. Black hole, engine or thrust damage.
9, Space Weather - Much like 8 - Severe nebulas, Ion storms, a really, really dense asteroid field. - Multiple hull impacts, low integrity.
10, If boarding is introduced - because the enemy has reached a critical system, like the airlocks (venting) or the bridge/engineering
11, Abstracting a bit - Pilot Error is a large cause of ejections.
12, Viral or disruptor type weapons targeting an unshielded crew.
13, Rookie or Cowards Panic. - Any reason you like.
14, General Systems malfunction or Ejector seat malfunction.
15, The AI Just lost a dozen of its friends, and he's playing dead, shutting the ship down. - Nice surprise when someone tries to salvage him :D Or he's a lone scout whose been told to avoid contact with the enemy, so he powers down.

There's 15 I could probably do a few more if needs be but that covers an example.

If you really want AI Motivations to factor into this a lot of this is down to a few characteristics along the lines of.
Survivalist (Self preservation/greed)
Bravery
Reactions

If you wanted further detail - realism on the pilots status, i'd abstract it as a system of the ship (heavily shielded/armored). Allowing some weapons to direct target the 'pilot system'.

[/quote]
Commander McLane wrote:
Karrade wrote:1 in 100 chance the AI successful ejects or simply dies in the ship.
See, you're doing it again.

The thing about LT is—and you need to appreciate this—that this is not how it works. NPCs will act upon their motivations. They will not throw dice. Usually in a game there's a random mechanism simulating the outcome of AI decisions, by using a statistical analysis of all possible outcomes and assigning a probability to each outcome, and then let the AI throw a die. For the player this looks like X% of NPCs they come across will have made decision A (ejecting), and Y% will have made decision B (not ejecting) in the same situation.

*SNIP*

Then we have a meaningful debate.
You're missing the entire point still. You don't think LT abstracts other things that go on in space flight? If it modeled everything down a minute detail you'd need a supercomputer 'per ship' just to get out of the docking bay, much like NASA do.

If you want to accurately model what happens to a pilot under fire while he ejects, down to a more minute detail. Then you're arguing for realism in the ejection chances to avoid injury, or a system malfunction, the vector the capsule launched in compared to where the enemy were shooting, the pilots psychological condition (did he panic, did he want revenge). You can't have it both ways either you want detail or want it abstracted.

It's like asking for the weapon systems to model heat, life time damage, cone of fire, preference to use which gun when, weapon malfunctions, recoil - its all detail and realistic but its going way too far in processing requirements of a space sim.

Instead the weapons are going to use an algorithm, make it more complicated than 1 in a 100 by all means if it'll help.
Post

Re: Abandoned ships

#35
Commander McLane wrote:
Then we have a meaningful debate.
AI's thought process... AI believes there is >100% chance of ship will immediately not be able to sustain his life (for whatever reason, many have been covered so far).

Reason for abandoning ship, self preservation.

Oh darn the ship didn't blow. Looks unserviceable though, better turn on emergency locator and get some help. At least I didn't die.

Seems rather feasible.

Ah here it is, a video that details how much of a gut call ejection is, and that it may happen when it is not needed making for an abandoned ship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... zvEDNdyFBU

"I was stationed aboard that ship. USS Lexington AVT 16. To answer the questions as of what happened that day, the aircraft made a text book approach and when the pilot was attempting to catch the #3 wire, the tailhook broke. The aircraft disappeared from the camera as it climbed then eventually stalled and nose dived into the water on the starboard side ( right side to the non nautical ones) like a giant lawn dart. Both the pilot and navigator was fished from the water alive"

Found that later.
Post

Re: Abandoned ships

#36
We also have to remember that the simulation actually has the AI run through scenarios of possible outcomes before choosing the best one.

With the way Josh has already described this during September's dev logs, it would seem that if the AI believes that if the majority of scenarios it runs through will cause it to lose it's life, then chances are they would eject.

As was stated, death is a big motivator, and with Josh's simulation engine in place, I'm going to guess that the VAST MAJORITY of enemies will eject before death because while survival is slim, it will be more than what the AI simulated. So while we can toss numbers, I'm guessing that reality will be that given the opportunity of ejection vs. death, we'll see much more ejection.
Image
Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
Post

Re: Abandoned ships

#37
insta wrote:I would suggest the following:

A ship once destroyed has a chance leave a wreck (either randomly or determined by which subsystems are still intact). This may then be salvaged to obtain the still functioning subsystems or their blue-prints/techs/basic components.
Right.

A destroyed ship does not necessarily need to explode. I know it's a trope, but there could be a small chance for a salvageable wreck instead. This eliminates the need for any discussion about ejection or life boats.
Post

Re: Abandoned ships

#38
Finally, someone understands my intent :)

If you insist on snatching vessels from the poor AI, wrecks could also be made towable. So you can pull the scrap heap to the nearest shipyard to have it repaired for a fee. Maybe GTA style: "let me fix that pile of junk for 276cr. You'll get a new finish to boot."
Post

Re: Abandoned ships

#39
insta wrote:Finally, someone understands my intent :)

If you insist on snatching vessels from the poor AI, wrecks could also be made towable. So you can pull the scrap heap to the nearest shipyard to have it repaired for a fee. Maybe GTA style: "let me fix that pile of junk for 276cr. You'll get a new finish to boot."
Yeah that is what we were starting with, it can be as simple as that. Really badly damaged, most of the systems gone or out of action but maybe you'll get materials from the hull, if you're really lucky cargo and REALLY rarely an actual ship out of it.
Post

Re: Abandoned ships

#40
Karrade wrote:
insta wrote:Finally, someone understands my intent :)

If you insist on snatching vessels from the poor AI, wrecks could also be made towable. So you can pull the scrap heap to the nearest shipyard to have it repaired for a fee. Maybe GTA style: "let me fix that pile of junk for 276cr. You'll get a new finish to boot."
Yeah that is what we were starting with, it can be as simple as that. Really badly damaged, most of the systems gone or out of action but maybe you'll get materials from the hull, if you're really lucky cargo and REALLY rarely an actual ship out of it.
Agree.
Post

Derelicts & Shipwrecks

#41
Hi everyone,
I searched the forum and checked the common suggestions thread, and as far as I can tell, no one has talked much about the possibility of abandoned ships and/or the remains of ships. I love finding old things lost in battle or through some accident. Picture going into a dense asteroid field and coming across the skeletal remains of an ancient battle ship--it didn't come up on long-ranged scanners because there are no power signatures left, but up close you notice that there are some valuable materials that could be extracted.

What I suggest is: Based on what sub systems are hit, how hard the ship is hit, and maybe a random chance variable, ships could either be completely blown apart when destroyed, or they could be left adrift; no longer useable or working. Then this will work with the IA and setting up a new universe, so that systems will be littered with old ships that perhaps degrade even further over time. Gameplay wise, you could not only come across these ships by chance, but you may also come across missions to search for ships near their last known locations. In example, say an npc wants to find one of his/her ships that went missing, so they offer an award if you can find it and bring back the black box (mission record). Maybe they'd even let you keep whatever valuables you find on board (so you never know the full extent of the reward).

This would add another mission type, which I believe we need. It will also add some excitement to exploring asteroid fields and perhaps even deep space. Everyone, feel free to add any suggestions or ideas below. And Josh, I hope you consider this if you haven't already. :thumbup:
Post

Re: Derelicts & Shipwrecks

#43
I think you didn't find much because of your search term... Derelict wouldn't be common here.

The topic has been covered in the thread about abandoned ships. Not too easy to find, but feel free to necro bump it if you wan. There's a bit of information there as well.

Hope that helps! :wave:
Image
Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
Post

Re: Derelicts & Shipwrecks

#44
Cornflakes_91 wrote: Some types of equipment could prevent the formation of wrecks, self destruct devices or failing antimatter reactors for example.
That's a good idea right there! If they don't want their tech to get in the hands of other factions!
DWMagus wrote:I think you didn't find much because of your search term... Derelict wouldn't be common here.

The topic has been covered in the thread about abandoned ships. Not too easy to find, but feel free to necro bump it if you wan. There's a bit of information there as well.
I see, thanks! I should have tried other terms.

However, I think my suggestion is different enough to warrant this separate thread. From what I can tell over there, when they say abandoned ships, they mean ships that were working that were left adrift by the pilot. These ships could be collected and used again. Whereas I'm talking about totally wrecked ships where the pilots have died but the body of the ship remains. These ships would have no hope of repair. You wouldn't be able fly them, but you could salvage parts, material, and technology. Some nodes in the ship will be completely lost, but other things might still be useful. Players could get equipment designed for salvaging, or they could tow the wreck to a dock and salvage there.
Post

Re: Abandoned ships

#45
I think shipwrecks should be more common than abandoned ships. To me, when I ship is destroyed, it's more likely for the main body of it to remain intact while the crew dies and primary systems go offline. Unless you favor the reactor breech being strong enough to shred the craft, I think skeletal remains that can be salvaged for parts and tech would be really cool and believable.
Last edited by TheSkyIsUp on Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

Online Now

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron