Return to “General”

Post

I think Josh lied

#1
To whoever still comes here : let's have a healthy, open discussion about it, shall we not ?

I figured this could be the right place to discuss it. Thought about it a while, wondering if that was in accordance with "Remember the human", and I remembered - discussing it is the only sane thing to do.

For a while, discussions and criticism were largely suppressed on Limit Theory forums. Silencing discussions and critics were detrimental for the game, we became a warm and fuzzy echochamber, and Josh, little by little, felt he could escape his accountability.

There were the believers and the doubters, and I was a hoper. Back in 2012, when Josh released his daily dev logs, I would religiously read them, each day. Even when I was on vacation or on remote places where internet coverage was hard to get, I'd find a way to go read the dev log.

Not that I think that Josh is accountable to me just because I feel entitled or something, or because I really wanted to play the game someday. Nuh-huh, this isn't about me. I've come to terms with LT a long time ago. Perhaps whoever reads this will doubt it, but, hey, I'm not the subject :D
I think Josh lied. He did not just fail because of mental health issues, I think he knew a while ago, way before quitting, that he wouldn't be able to complete the game.

Where is the source code ? It's been a long while since the people who gave him money, time and trust haven't heard of Josh. I don't believe it's ever coming out, because he was able to make the videos look pretty and shiny and drown us into a lot of meta and vague chatter about coding, but the code itself would say the truth, and that would be a problem.

Since enough time has passed, I think now's a good time to have a discussion about this. I'd love to hear what people familiar with the project might have to say about it. Do you still believe the source code is ever going to be released ?

I still respect the guy as much as the next guy. I don't think he's a monster, or a scammer, or any -er word. Perhaps he was in part overwhelmed by the anticipation and hopes of the community.

I'm just saying I think he lied about many things, hid behind excuses of mental health issues - to be fair it was mainly "I'm exhausted because I spend a lot of time coding", and also lied about the release of the source code.

To conclude, even if this isn't addressed to Josh himself (if it was, I probably would have used the second person form), I would love if he had something to say about all this. No, I'm not begging for closure. Just reminding him - just reminding you, Josh, that you broke promises but also made other promises after that.

Where's the source code ?
Post

Re: I think Josh lied

#2
One conspiracy theory is as good as the next one, I guess.

My assumption was that he had sold the IP to someone, and is not allowed to release the source code as someone else owns it.

I find that preferable to believe than him just lying because he knew it was never going to be released? How far back would that go?

Remember though, if you played it, that version 1.1 prototype that we got access to, years ago. I still have that somewhere, I think. It was playable, not that there was a lot to do in it. But it was working code, but far from what we had hoped for, and far from even what he was releasing in those videos, like the fancy UI displaying the code behind a ships configuration. That was great.

I suspect most people just want some kind of closure. We got strung along for so long, with no payoff at the end of it, and it would just be nice to see a line drawn under the whole thing.

For me that would be a chunk of broken code sitting on my hard disk, and not someone elses. Or an explanation as to how it all went so wrong.

This is one of those examples of why I would never go near a Kickstarter again. So thanks Josh for that, if nothing else....
Post

Re: I think Josh lied

#3
Memnoch wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:43 pm
One conspiracy theory is as good as the next one, I guess.
Conspiracy theory ? Nothing so grand. I'm not claiming the aliens abducted Josh to work on their top secret UI or something. I'm just saying what I wrote. Simple suspicions, and quite realistic in my opinion. He could have reduced his ambitions, simplified his works, but instead it was permanent "so I'm refactoring the code", "I'm creating a new coding language", "I went back and restarted stuff", always delaying.
Memnoch wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:43 pm
My assumption was that he had sold the IP to someone, and is not allowed to release the source code as someone else owns it.
That cat would be out of the bag, someday, eventually, whereas just hiding and never releasing - like he's doing so far - can leave deniability in suspension for quite a while. Until we come back and the whole LT domain is gone if Josh just doesn't renew it.
Memnoch wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:43 pm
I find that preferable to believe than him just lying because he knew it was never going to be released? How far back would that go?
In my opinion that goes far back, perhaps before the dark days. But I think he was still hoping or just couldn't find a way out of all this.
Memnoch wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:43 pm
Remember though, if you played it, that version 1.1 prototype that we got access to, years ago. I still have that somewhere, I think. It was playable, not that there was a lot to do in it. But it was working code, but far from what we had hoped for, and far from even what he was releasing in those videos, like the fancy UI displaying the code behind a ships configuration. That was great.
I know he did work on stuff, and that old prototype did happen. And there has been a lot of progress involved after that. Real promising stuff, really. I'm not denying that part.
Memnoch wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:43 pm
I suspect most people just want some kind of closure. We got strung along for so long, with no payoff at the end of it, and it would just be nice to see a line drawn under the whole thing.
Memnoch wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:43 pm
For me that would be a chunk of broken code sitting on my hard disk, and not someone elses. Or an explanation as to how it all went so wrong.
That's the least we deserve. And I'm not satisfied with what was said in the cancellation announcement. It's not enough, it doesn't seem sincere. And, again, the source code. Where is it ? Oh, yeah. He's supposedly reworking it again. Right.
Memnoch wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:43 pm
This is one of those examples of why I would never go near a Kickstarter again. So thanks Josh for that, if nothing else....
I disagree with that part. His project was promising. It was worth the risk. He was an interesting, likeable person. Still is, I'm sure. And I can admit that projects do fail sometimes, even with the best intentions and dedication. It didn't deter me from backing other games (for the record, I didn't back LT, I heard about it right after the KS campaign).

The problem is not the failure, the problem is the dishonesty.

I'll gladly eat my words if I'm proven wrong at some point.
Post

Re: I think Josh lied

#4
I would argue that Josh was vague in certain areas, such as how every gameplay element would tie in together, along with not being forthcoming about which things he was working on at any given time. However, I do think in his eyes he was being as transparent and honest as he could be by communicating on the forums and through the daily dev logs and monthly videos.
Image
Post

Re: I think Josh lied

#5
I also see the failure to at least release the source code as a disappointment.

Probably a situation like
rather than any particular other thing. But disappointing regardless. Even if it was broken including the build scripting, it all ought to just be thrown online on some repository.
Post

Re: I think Josh lied

#6
Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity.

Not to say that Josh is outright stupid, but to say that he was overly ambitious and/or naïve and realized as much only all too late. To say that he lied would be to assume that he knew he was misleading us the entire time, and just wanted an excuse to ride out on the remainder of whatever cash he had from the Kickstarter.

I'm not willing to believe that Josh deliberately misled all of us, at least not without misleading himself at the same time. Maybe he thought, at many junctures, "if I can just do X, then I'll be able to complete the game". This is a good faith effort, not a lie. Lies are manipulation. In much the same way, I don't think Pierre de Fermat was lying when he said that he had a proof that was too large to fit in the margins of his copy of Arithmetica. As impressive of a troll that would be, I think it's more likely that Fermat did not yet understand the complexities underlying his conjecture, which took centuries of mathematical advancement to prove. Maybe he even did sit down to try his hands at a proof, and quickly realized that it was beyond his ken, but never went back to cross out his assertion in the margins of his book.

Being incorrect is not the same as lying, put plainly.

Furthermore, to suggest that the claims of mental illness are a hokey shield thrown up to protect himself from criticism is massively disrespectful to anyone suffering from depression or anxiety or work burnout or anything else even remotely of the sort. Given the pressure he was under to make the game effectively solo (with the exception of a few helping hands during the sunset days of Limit Theory as a project), and with a horde of eager beavers waiting impatiently here on the forums, ravenous for information, I think it's quite reasonable to assume he developed a case of anxiety or depression in the process, never mind a whole host of other factors that could have played into his mental state which we are simply not aware of. We didn't know much about his family or his personal life (or if he even had one during development), and we know even less now. Whether his condition (which we should assume, in good faith, was not fictitious) has improved or worsened is unknown to us.

But let's imagine he did lie, for a moment. Why? It wasn't to get more money. There was never a second campaign or a Patreon page or a Paypal account. It wasn't to get more publicity. There were a few articles every year about LT, but it's not like they drew huge crowds to the forums. What kind of liar only asks for more time? Josh never took advantage of us. We knew that he only wanted to do the project on what was given to him, and lying wouldn't save him any face if he knew the disappointing end of Limit Theory was inevitable. He would only be able to delay. Would a con man have hired Adam, or paid Talvieno to be community manager? No, they would only be cracks in the architecture of the lie.

The idea that he began lying in the middle of the whole thing is, thus, madness. He would have to have been doing so from the very beginning. We can never truly know if that's the case, but is asserting as such worth anything? To take thousands of posts and hundreds of ideas and claim they were all for nothing? To imply that the entire LT community is a gullible herd of livestock that spent years on forums and in IRC, talking up the snake oil of a twenty-something con man with a C++ compiler and some nifty shaders?

No. To do that is not worth anything. It would be to rip open a wound, which has already closed for many, and throw salt on it. If there was any deception on Josh's part, I firmly believe it was self-deception. It's just another part of being human.

And for the source code? I shall continue to assume good faith.
Shameless Self-Promotion 0/ magenta 0/ Forum Rules & Game FAQ
Post

Re: I think Josh lied

#7
Well.. I come back to see if the message board has been disconnected yet and see this post at the top.

Back in the hay days of Limit Theory I was probably one of the most vocal members here when it came in challenging the "status quo" of Josh. I never thought Josh lied however, will say that.

Josh failed because he spent too much time endlessly tweaking small stuff, like designing the same menus 4 or 5 times, when the first one could have functioned just fine. Fancy fine tuning of the "fluff" stuff can be done last. Particularly when you are a one man team. (for most of the development process) Now before someone come back with "but Josh needed the menus to be tweaked in such a way that his game would work".. no. Sorry. Josh would spend weeks working on fluff when the core needed to work. Basic menus would have been fine, particularity for development.

Why did he do this?

I believe it's because he wanted pretty videos to show everyone. Basic background low level stuff is not showy, but a new menu using a cool effect? Bling bling baby.

He should have bit the bullet early on and started cutting features. Once he saw the massive hill in front of him, pulling limit theory back a few levels could have made this project possible. If it released things could have been expanded on in the future.

To summarize, no Josh didn't lie, at least I have seen zero evidence of such. He was young and tried to be the "nice guy" developer and be transparent and show his fans lots of cool stuff. If he focused more on making an actual functioning game and less on the fans expectations, maybe we would have a game by now. Instead we have nothing.
My Signature
Post

Re: I think Josh lied

#8
Josh seemed like a pretty optimistic guy by nature.

If he went to work for a game (or even general software) development studio, as I believe Adam said toward the end, then I hope Josh is picking up the practical aspects of completing a project.

Perfectionist Josh will probably always be there, never fully satisfied with what can actually get made. But maybe Accomplishment Josh will now be there as well to win that conversation in his future projects.

Online Now

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron