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I think Josh lied

#1
To whoever still comes here : let's have a healthy, open discussion about it, shall we not ?

I figured this could be the right place to discuss it. Thought about it a while, wondering if that was in accordance with "Remember the human", and I remembered - discussing it is the only sane thing to do.

For a while, discussions and criticism were largely suppressed on Limit Theory forums. Silencing discussions and critics were detrimental for the game, we became a warm and fuzzy echochamber, and Josh, little by little, felt he could escape his accountability.

There were the believers and the doubters, and I was a hoper. Back in 2012, when Josh released his daily dev logs, I would religiously read them, each day. Even when I was on vacation or on remote places where internet coverage was hard to get, I'd find a way to go read the dev log.

Not that I think that Josh is accountable to me just because I feel entitled or something, or because I really wanted to play the game someday. Nuh-huh, this isn't about me. I've come to terms with LT a long time ago. Perhaps whoever reads this will doubt it, but, hey, I'm not the subject :D
I think Josh lied. He did not just fail because of mental health issues, I think he knew a while ago, way before quitting, that he wouldn't be able to complete the game.

Where is the source code ? It's been a long while since the people who gave him money, time and trust haven't heard of Josh. I don't believe it's ever coming out, because he was able to make the videos look pretty and shiny and drown us into a lot of meta and vague chatter about coding, but the code itself would say the truth, and that would be a problem.

Since enough time has passed, I think now's a good time to have a discussion about this. I'd love to hear what people familiar with the project might have to say about it. Do you still believe the source code is ever going to be released ?

I still respect the guy as much as the next guy. I don't think he's a monster, or a scammer, or any -er word. Perhaps he was in part overwhelmed by the anticipation and hopes of the community.

I'm just saying I think he lied about many things, hid behind excuses of mental health issues - to be fair it was mainly "I'm exhausted because I spend a lot of time coding", and also lied about the release of the source code.

To conclude, even if this isn't addressed to Josh himself (if it was, I probably would have used the second person form), I would love if he had something to say about all this. No, I'm not begging for closure. Just reminding him - just reminding you, Josh, that you broke promises but also made other promises after that.

Where's the source code ?
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Re: I think Josh lied

#2
One conspiracy theory is as good as the next one, I guess.

My assumption was that he had sold the IP to someone, and is not allowed to release the source code as someone else owns it.

I find that preferable to believe than him just lying because he knew it was never going to be released? How far back would that go?

Remember though, if you played it, that version 1.1 prototype that we got access to, years ago. I still have that somewhere, I think. It was playable, not that there was a lot to do in it. But it was working code, but far from what we had hoped for, and far from even what he was releasing in those videos, like the fancy UI displaying the code behind a ships configuration. That was great.

I suspect most people just want some kind of closure. We got strung along for so long, with no payoff at the end of it, and it would just be nice to see a line drawn under the whole thing.

For me that would be a chunk of broken code sitting on my hard disk, and not someone elses. Or an explanation as to how it all went so wrong.

This is one of those examples of why I would never go near a Kickstarter again. So thanks Josh for that, if nothing else....
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Re: I think Josh lied

#3
Memnoch wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:43 pm
One conspiracy theory is as good as the next one, I guess.
Conspiracy theory ? Nothing so grand. I'm not claiming the aliens abducted Josh to work on their top secret UI or something. I'm just saying what I wrote. Simple suspicions, and quite realistic in my opinion. He could have reduced his ambitions, simplified his works, but instead it was permanent "so I'm refactoring the code", "I'm creating a new coding language", "I went back and restarted stuff", always delaying.
Memnoch wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:43 pm
My assumption was that he had sold the IP to someone, and is not allowed to release the source code as someone else owns it.
That cat would be out of the bag, someday, eventually, whereas just hiding and never releasing - like he's doing so far - can leave deniability in suspension for quite a while. Until we come back and the whole LT domain is gone if Josh just doesn't renew it.
Memnoch wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:43 pm
I find that preferable to believe than him just lying because he knew it was never going to be released? How far back would that go?
In my opinion that goes far back, perhaps before the dark days. But I think he was still hoping or just couldn't find a way out of all this.
Memnoch wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:43 pm
Remember though, if you played it, that version 1.1 prototype that we got access to, years ago. I still have that somewhere, I think. It was playable, not that there was a lot to do in it. But it was working code, but far from what we had hoped for, and far from even what he was releasing in those videos, like the fancy UI displaying the code behind a ships configuration. That was great.
I know he did work on stuff, and that old prototype did happen. And there has been a lot of progress involved after that. Real promising stuff, really. I'm not denying that part.
Memnoch wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:43 pm
I suspect most people just want some kind of closure. We got strung along for so long, with no payoff at the end of it, and it would just be nice to see a line drawn under the whole thing.
Memnoch wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:43 pm
For me that would be a chunk of broken code sitting on my hard disk, and not someone elses. Or an explanation as to how it all went so wrong.
That's the least we deserve. And I'm not satisfied with what was said in the cancellation announcement. It's not enough, it doesn't seem sincere. And, again, the source code. Where is it ? Oh, yeah. He's supposedly reworking it again. Right.
Memnoch wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:43 pm
This is one of those examples of why I would never go near a Kickstarter again. So thanks Josh for that, if nothing else....
I disagree with that part. His project was promising. It was worth the risk. He was an interesting, likeable person. Still is, I'm sure. And I can admit that projects do fail sometimes, even with the best intentions and dedication. It didn't deter me from backing other games (for the record, I didn't back LT, I heard about it right after the KS campaign).

The problem is not the failure, the problem is the dishonesty.

I'll gladly eat my words if I'm proven wrong at some point.
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Re: I think Josh lied

#4
I would argue that Josh was vague in certain areas, such as how every gameplay element would tie in together, along with not being forthcoming about which things he was working on at any given time. However, I do think in his eyes he was being as transparent and honest as he could be by communicating on the forums and through the daily dev logs and monthly videos.
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Re: I think Josh lied

#5
I also see the failure to at least release the source code as a disappointment.

Probably a situation like
rather than any particular other thing. But disappointing regardless. Even if it was broken including the build scripting, it all ought to just be thrown online on some repository.

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