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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#16
wizaerd wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:23 am
Technically, there's no reason why an X game couldn't work on a console. The previous X games couldn't because it wasn't designed for it, but if it were designed for a console from the start, and was seen through to the end, it'd be a great addition to the console market. People often lament the lack of buttons on a controller compared to a M&KB, which just isn;t true these days. There are a multitude of button combinations that could indeed work just as well, as demonstrated by Elite's controller support. It's not an RTS game where action per minute matter. And if it could be paused while issuing orders could make even more friendly.
elite is what works best on a controller, a flight sim.
and the lack of buttons mostly isnt the problem, its the lack of fine control you need for anything but relative-rotation-rate orders (aka steering)
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#17
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:57 pm
wizaerd wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:23 am
Technically, there's no reason why an X game couldn't work on a console. The previous X games couldn't because it wasn't designed for it, but if it were designed for a console from the start, and was seen through to the end, it'd be a great addition to the console market. People often lament the lack of buttons on a controller compared to a M&KB, which just isn;t true these days. There are a multitude of button combinations that could indeed work just as well, as demonstrated by Elite's controller support. It's not an RTS game where action per minute matter. And if it could be paused while issuing orders could make even more friendly.
elite is what works best on a controller, a flight sim.
and the lack of buttons mostly isnt the problem, its the lack of fine control you need for anything but relative-rotation-rate orders (aka steering)
Lack of precision is purely subjective. People who are used to consoles and controllers have no real issue with precision. So what types of things do you think you need such fine tuned precision for that a console user would struggle with?
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#18
wizaerd wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:38 pm
Lack of precision is purely subjective. People who are used to consoles and controllers have no real issue with precision. So what types of things do you think you need such fine tuned precision for that a console user would struggle with?
theres different kinds of precison
you dont play RTS games with a joystick either, no ?:P

because a mouse and an analog stick of any kind are good for different things.

mice are pointers, they are good for fast, well, pointing at a location in screenspace.
they are good for absolute locations.
(you directly move the pointer where you want it like you'd move a physical object)

sticks are direction and velocity/rate controllers. they determine how fast you want to go in what direction
they are good for relative directions.
(you are tilting the "desk" and the controlled object "rolls down" the slope)

both are relatively bad at what the other one is good.
you can build shemes to get similar end results for both (rate control from mouse input, position control from stick input) but neither of those emulations are as good as the proper tool for the job.

flight controls are pretty much what sticks are good at, direction and rate controls (theres a reason airplanes have them)
good for elite, good for the flight part of the X games.

but the X games arent just flying around, they have managing, they have commanding.
they need or at least strongly benefit from absolute pointing (and numerical input from keyboards, but thats outside what im arguing right now)
ordering (groups of) ships without scrolling though long lists, designating positions for movement/construction, inventory management of anything beyond a small single-person ship and so on.
yes, the old x games had that and very lacking mouse controls of the things i outlined.
and in that regard they were a horrible interface mess of frustration and crap.
(so much in fact that i rarely even bothered with those parts in x2/x3 and just stayed with single ship gameplay or the universe traders which need little input at all)
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#19
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:48 pm
wizaerd wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:38 pm
Lack of precision is purely subjective. People who are used to consoles and controllers have no real issue with precision. So what types of things do you think you need such fine tuned precision for that a console user would struggle with?
theres different kinds of precison
you dont play RTS games with a joystick either, no ?:P

because a mouse and an analog stick of any kind are good for different things.

mice are pointers, they are good for fast, well, pointing at a location in screenspace.
they are good for absolute locations.
(you directly move the pointer where you want it like you'd move a physical object)

sticks are direction and velocity/rate controllers. they determine how fast you want to go in what direction
they are good for relative directions.
(you are tilting the "desk" and the controlled object "rolls down" the slope)

both are relatively bad at what the other one is good.
you can build shemes to get similar end results for both (rate control from mouse input, position control from stick input) but neither of those emulations are as good as the proper tool for the job.

flight controls are pretty much what sticks are good at, direction and rate controls (theres a reason airplanes have them)
good for elite, good for the flight part of the X games.

but the X games arent just flying around, they have managing, they have commanding.
they need or at least strongly benefit from absolute pointing (and numerical input from keyboards, but thats outside what im arguing right now)
ordering (groups of) ships without scrolling though long lists, designating positions for movement/construction, inventory management of anything beyond a small single-person ship and so on.
yes, the old x games had that and very lacking mouse controls of the things i outlined.
and in that regard they were a horrible interface mess of frustration and crap.
(so much in fact that i rarely even bothered with those parts in x2/x3 and just stayed with single ship gameplay or the universe traders which need little input at all)
Again, most of this is subjective. People have played RTS games on consoles with sticks, quite successfully I migth add, and they play shooters each and every day. You feel you're more precise with a mouse pointer, great for you. But people who grew up with consoles are used to using a controller, and can be every bit as precise as you can with your mouse pointer. But this is all moot, because again, we are not talking about an RTS game here. There is absolutely no reason an X game would not work on a console, with a controller. Smartly designed radial menus and button combinations can give you more than enough access to everything. Numeric input is slightly challenging, but not really if the UI was designed right from the getgo.
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#20
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:16 pm
Again, most of this is subjective.
no its not :P

when you come with "people play shooters with sticks as well" yeah, i do that as well, a lot of it in fact.
but compared to a mouse its still slow and clunky and im slow and/or hit nought when i turn off the aim assist systems which are in place in pretty much every console shooter i played
People have played RTS games on consoles with sticks, quite successfully I migth add, and they play shooters each and every day. You feel you're more precise with a mouse pointer, great for you.
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:16 pm
But people who grew up with consoles are used to using a controller, and can be every bit as precise as you can with your mouse pointer.
no they cant because im one of them :P

also, arguing with people that are at or close to the skill ceiling you wont get the masses of people who arent.
and the skill needed to point precisely with a mouse is far lower than with a stick.
and hitting a button is a bit more basic than cool flying in terms of usability
so demanding mouse level precision and speed from stick users is at best annoying people and at worst keeping a large portion of the people who'd want to play it out of the game (and wasted a fair chunk of resources on not improving the game for the PC users)
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:16 pm
But this is all moot, because again, we are not talking about an RTS game here.
except the parts of X that are RTS and would profit a lot from proper mouse controls :P
like the ship command parts i mostly skipped in the previous x parts because they were so unusable with the interface they had in place.
the parts which they mostly scrapped in XR probably because they couldnt get them to work properly with the controller controls they obviously built it for.
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:16 pm
There is absolutely no reason an X game would not work on a console, with a controller. Smartly designed radial menus and button combinations can give you more than enough access to everything.
because that worked so well for XR which is totally not dumbed down compared to the previous parts.
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#21
You're stuck in a rut Cornflakes... You think that because historically X games have been PC-centric, that there's no way it would work on a console. I am in complete disagreement. As stated XR started out with a console design, then they scrapped it half-way thru. That's why it was an abysmal mess, some kind of hybrid beast. There were lots of things they did wrong with XR. If it were designed smartly from the beginning, and seen through to the end, there is no reason why it would not work. Nothing in an X game needed to be dealt with in the same quick fashion that it does in an RTS. And again, if they designed it with a console in mind, they could easily add the right functionality to overcome that objection, such as a tactical pause. I played Albion Prelude with a controller, and rarely ever needed to touch my keyboard or mouse. It is do-able. Console does not automatically mean "dumbed" down, and you're showing your PC prejudiced by stating as much.
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#22
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:19 pm
Console does not automatically mean "dumbed" down, and you're showing your PC prejudiced by stating as much.
no, i didnt say that.

i said that XR IS dumbed down and from what i see is that egosofts absymal interface designers had more than a little influence on the parts that were cut because there was no good way to control them in a controller centric interface
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#23
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:25 pm
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:19 pm
Console does not automatically mean "dumbed" down, and you're showing your PC prejudiced by stating as much.
no, i didnt say that.

i said that XR IS dumbed down and from what i see is that egosofts absymal interface designers had more than a little influence on the parts that were cut because there was no good way to control them in a controller centric interface
Then they need new designers and coders... There are good ways to control everything with a controller, it just takes a bit of thoughtful design and effort. Opening the X games to consoles could only be a good thing for the franchise. There isn't anything required in an X game that I couldn't do with a controller, especially with smart radial menus and button combinations.

While it's apples to oranges, I remember when people said there was no way applications could be written in browsers, that browsers were too limited, and it'd have to be dumbed down significantly. And yet, here we are, living in the age of web applications. Our entire application suite we use here at work run in browsers. Where there are obstacles, there are solutions. Just gotta be willing to dedicate time and effort to them.
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#25
Godz wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:52 pm
Having played both X3 and XR (and dispite usually prefering to play games with a controller) i have to agree with Cornflakes, IMO games like X3 are better played with KB+Mouse.
On a sidenote i just received this from Egosoft:

X4 Announcement Presentation live on Twitch

https://www.twitch.tv/egosoftofficial

Live on: Saturday 26th 15:00 CEST, 1PM GMT, 9AM EDT

So let's find out if they learned anything with XR
X3 is better with a M&KB because it was designed that way. But X4 is a new beast, and could very well be designed correctly from the beginning, it could very well work with a constroller.
Last edited by wizaerd on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#26
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:44 pm
Then they need new designers and coders... There are good ways to control everything with a controller, it just takes a bit of thoughtful design and effort. Opening the X games to consoles could only be a good thing for the franchise. There isn't anything required in an X game that I couldn't do with a controller, especially with smart radial menus and button combinations.
because egosoft showed so thoroughly that they can design good interfaces :P
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:44 pm
While it's apples to oranges, I remember when people said there was no way applications could be written in browsers, that browsers were too limited, and it'd have to be dumbed down significantly. And yet, here we are, living in the age of web applications. Our entire application suite we use here at work run in browsers. Where there are obstacles, there are solutions. Just gotta be willing to dedicate time and effort to them.
thats apple to coffee table.

theres a difference between processing power limitations and interface possibility limitations

wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:54 pm
X3 is better with a M&KB because it was designed that way. But X4 is a new beast, and could very well be designed correctly from the beginning, it could very well work with a constroller.
also, no it wasnt. the interfaces were very obviously designed to be used with some arrow key/dpad controls and the semi proper mouse support got added in afterwards.
Post

Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#27
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. It's all moot, because it won't be done., unless I do it myself. And if I had the background to do all the economic simulation, I would.

It saddens me in this day and age, with the technological advances we have all around us, nobody has the vision to overcome these types of platform prejudices.
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#28
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:59 pm
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. It's all moot, because it won't be done., unless I do it myself. And if I had the background to do all the economic simulation, I would.

It saddens me in this day and age, with the technological advances we have all around us, nobody has the vision to overcome these types of platform prejudices.
then grab unreal or unity and build a prototype and show that you are right :P

and im not saying that a console cant. im saying that a contoller is very ill suited :P
plug a kb+m into a playstation and i wont complain
Post

Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#29
Here are 112 controller button combinations that could be put to use, and it's not even counting putting together a well designed radial menu, nor the two face button combinations that are possible either. Nor does it take into consideration context, which could completely redefine any of these combinations if made context aware.

Triangle
LB + Triangle
RB + Triangle
LT + Triangle
RT + Triangle
DPad Left + Triangle
DPad Up + Triangle
DPad Right + Triangle
DPad Down + Triangle
Square
LB + Square
RB + Square
LT + Square
RT + Square
DPad Left + Square
DPad Up + Square
DPad Right + Square
DPad Down + Square
Circle
LB + Circle
RB + Circle
LT + Circle
RT + Circle
DPad Left + Circle
DPad Up + Circle
DPad Right + Circle
DPad Down + Circle
X
LB + X
RB + X
LT + X
RT + X
DPad Left + X
DPad Up + X
DPad Right + X
DPad Down + X

LStick Down = Toggle Alternate Controls
Triangle
LB + Triangle
RB + Triangle
LT + Triangle
RT + Triangle
DPad Left + Triangle
DPad Up + Triangle
DPad Right + Triangle
DPad Down + Triangle
Square
LB + Square
RB + Square
LT + Square
RT + Square
DPad Left + Square
DPad Up + Square
DPad Right + Square
DPad Down + Square
Circle
LB + Circle
RB + Circle
LT + Circle
RT + Circle
DPad Left + Circle
DPad Up + Circle
DPad Right + Circle
DPad Down + Circle
X
LB + X
RB + X
LT + X
RT + X
DPad Left + X
DPad Up + X
DPad Right + X
DPad Down + X

RStick Down = Toggle Alternate Controls 2
Triangle
LB + Triangle
RB + Triangle
LT + Triangle
RT + Triangle
DPad Left + Triangle
DPad Up + Triangle
DPad Right + Triangle
DPad Down + Triangle
Square
LB + Square
RB + Square
LT + Square
RT + Square
DPad Left + Square
DPad Up + Square
DPad Right + Square
DPad Down + Square
Circle
LB + Circle
RB + Circle
LT + Circle
RT + Circle
DPad Left + Circle
DPad Up + Circle
DPad Right + Circle
DPad Down + Circle
X
LB + X
RB + X
LT + X
RT + X
DPad Left + X
DPad Up + X
DPad Right + X
DPad Down + X

[EDIT] Huh, didn't even list the DPad button by themselves, which is 4 more...
Last edited by wizaerd on Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post

Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#30
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:06 pm
Here are 112 controller button combinations that could be put to use, and it's not even counting putting together a well designed radial menu, nor the two face button combinations that are possible either. Nor does it take into consideration context, which could completely redefine any of these combinations if made context aware.
and if you look very closely you'll see that none of my argument was about button mappings, only about pointer precision :P

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