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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#31
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:09 pm
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:06 pm
Here are 112 controller button combinations that could be put to use, and it's not even counting putting together a well designed radial menu, nor the two face button combinations that are possible either. Nor does it take into consideration context, which could completely redefine any of these combinations if made context aware.
and if you look very closely you'll see that none of my argument was about button mappings, only about pointer precision :P
And I disagree about the precision. I'm very precise with a controller. There's nothing in an X game that requires such fine tuned precision, and even if there were (which there ins't), there are ways to overcome it.
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#32
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:12 pm
And I disagree about the precision. I'm very precise with a controller. There's nothing in an X game that requires such fine tuned precision, and even if there were (which there ins't), there are ways to overcome it.
theres no things in XR, which cut a fair part of the stuff that could possibly require any pointer precision. heck they even removed most of the flying precision stuff with their always-on auto aim support
and in the other X parts theres those crappy attempts at a system map where you could command your ships around. which was basically useless because it didnt support mouse input but only that ancient dpad designed inputs.


x could have a fair part of homeworld in it if they would put their controls (and AI) through seriously.
proper fleet battles that are actually controllable, and the player in the middle with his wee fighter.
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#33
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:15 pm
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:12 pm
And I disagree about the precision. I'm very precise with a controller. There's nothing in an X game that requires such fine tuned precision, and even if there were (which there ins't), there are ways to overcome it.
theres no things in XR, which cut a fair part of the stuff that could possibly require any pointer precision. heck they even removed most of the flying precision stuff with their always-on auto aim support
and in the other X parts theres those crappy attempts at a system map where you could command your ships around. which was basically useless because it didnt support mouse input but only that ancient dpad designed inputs.


x could have a fair part of homeworld in it if they would put their controls (and AI) through seriously.
proper fleet battles that are actually controllable, and the player in the middle with his wee fighter.
Another consequence of the shoddy designers at Egosoft. Bringing these types of things up don't speak so much as to why an X game couldn't be done correctly with a controller, but why XR was a failure. The things you bring up are capable and possible with a controller, and still don't require such fine tuned precision. Again, there have been successful RTS games on consoles. It all comes down to UI design. Every obstacle has a solution. It really does...
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#34
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:25 pm
Another consequence of the shoddy designers at Egosoft. Bringing these types of things up don't speak so much as to why an X game couldn't be done correctly with a controller, but why XR was a failure. The things you bring up are capable and possible with a controller, and still don't require such fine tuned precision. Again, there have been successful RTS games on consoles. It all comes down to UI design. Every obstacle has a solution. It really does...
i've yet to see a "proper" RTS on a console thats successful.

i know of a few that were on console, but what i gathered is that basically nobody plays them.
(or that they use completely different control shemes based on preplaced control points like endwar)
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#35
If you're really going to go listing those combos as "proof of superiority" of one or the other, Wizaerd, might I remind you that a keyboard has 26 letters, 10 numbers, 12 function keys, tab, caps lock, lshift, lctrl, lalt, space, ralt, rctrl, rshift, enter, backspace, 10 keys with nothing but punctuation, and I haven't even gotten to the arrow keys, num pad, or home/end/page keys yet. with just the ones I've mentioned (minus the ones I lazily excluded) that comes up to at least 4000 combinations, assuming my lazy math is correct too. Of course, if you ever get to 4000 combos, your game design is atrocious and you should be ashamed. :ghost: although sometimes what you need is not so much a combo as the ability to press specific keys at the same time (or not) while holding others, as in flight simulators, in which keyboards come out ahead because... well, more buttons.


Honestly though, this conversation is (from my perspective) really, really silly. I started using a controller less than a month ago. I like it. For some games it's absolutely better-suited. There's no doubt about it. Computers just don't have analog input. Other games, I'd laugh at you if you tried to play with a controller (Overwatch for instance, or MS Flight Sim, both for different reasons).

Pros and cons:
M&K: Speed (yes mouse), buttons(so many), fast precision (zoom that mouse, boi)
cont: comfort (not gonna lie, feels really nice to lean back and get comfortable), small-scale precision (walking slow on keyboard? hahaha), multi-direction input (more than four directions *gasp*)


So why not both?


The big thing isn't controllers IMO. This all just comes down to the age-old console vs PC war. And nobody's going to win that one.


edit: holy carp, guys, try to maybe ninja me only twice instead of four times. :lol:
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#36
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:27 pm
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:25 pm
Another consequence of the shoddy designers at Egosoft. Bringing these types of things up don't speak so much as to why an X game couldn't be done correctly with a controller, but why XR was a failure. The things you bring up are capable and possible with a controller, and still don't require such fine tuned precision. Again, there have been successful RTS games on consoles. It all comes down to UI design. Every obstacle has a solution. It really does...
i've yet to see a "proper" RTS on a console thats successful.

i know of a few that were on console, but what i gathered is that basically nobody plays them.
(or that they use completely different control shemes based on preplaced control points like endwar)
The one that sticks out the most was Battle for Middle Earth, and it was pretty successful and popular. There was also Halo Wars, not as successful but that wasn;t because it was an RTS, but a porrly designed RTS regardless of platform.
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#37
I played Battle for Middle Earth on PC. Can't imagine playing it on console, but I have it and could fire it up for a test. Regardless, that was rather slow for an RTS in my opinion. It had a lot more relaxed of a feel than, say, Age of Empires.

edit: Wait a minute, X4 isn't an RTS. Why are we discussing RTS games exactly? I'm confused here.
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#38
Talvieno wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:34 pm
If you're really going to go listing those combos as "proof of superiority" of one or the other, Wizaerd, might I remind you that a keyboard has 26 letters, 10 numbers, 12 function keys, tab, caps lock, lshift, lctrl, lalt, space, ralt, rctrl, rshift, enter, backspace, 10 keys with nothing but punctuation, and I haven't even gotten to the arrow keys, num pad, or home/end/page keys yet. with just the ones I've mentioned (minus the ones I lazily excluded) that comes up to at least 4000 combinations, assuming my lazy math is correct too. Of course, if you ever get to 4000 combos, your game design is atrocious and you should be ashamed. :ghost: although sometimes what you need is not so much a combo as the ability to press specific keys at the same time (or not) while holding others, as in flight simulators, in which keyboards come out ahead because... well, more buttons.


Honestly though, this conversation is (from my perspective) really, really silly. I started using a controller less than a month ago. I like it. For some games it's absolutely better-suited. There's no doubt about it. Computers just don't have analog input. Other games, I'd laugh at you if you tried to play with a controller (Overwatch for instance, or MS Flight Sim, both for different reasons).

Pros and cons:
M&K: Speed (yes mouse), buttons(so many), fast precision (zoom that mouse, boi)
cont: comfort (not gonna lie, feels really nice to lean back and get comfortable), small-scale precision (walking slow on keyboard? hahaha), multi-direction input (more than four directions *gasp*)


So why not both?


The big thing isn't controllers IMO. This all just comes down to the age-old console vs PC war. And nobody's going to win that one.


edit: holy carp, guys, try to maybe ninja me only twice instead of four times. :lol:
It was not meant as proof of superiority, as I was never claiming a controller was superior. I was merely showing that there are enough button combinations to do an X game well. Of all those key combinations you counted up, they're not all used in a current X game at all. People play Overwatch on consoles all the time, as they do flight sims., so I don;t quite see your point there. Elite Dangerous is working out fantastically on consoles, as they have top notch controller support. But I do agree with you, why not both?

[EDIT] Your point about RTS is also valid, and it's one of the things I said, an X game doesn;t need nor require the quick action that you'd need in an RTS.
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#41
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:40 pm
People play Overwatch on consoles all the time, as they do flight sims
The question is not whether they can, or whether they should, but whether it's more efficient. You can simply flick a mouse a lot faster than you can turn with a controller's sticks. Someone with a mouse will always have an advantage over someone with a controller in a fast-paced shooter. As to flight sims, a proper, realistic one will have many dozens of buttons. You could sit there with a controller moving the mouse around the cockpit and then trying to select each one, or you could have a keyboard which makes getting to hundreds of buttons quite simple.

Elite: Dangerous I'd say for certain would be a fine game with controllers because it's not really that complicated by comparison. You don't have to worry about flaps, or fuel pipe heating, trim, rudder trim, spoilers, fuel mixtures, magnetos, various lights, com radio frequencies, localizers, etc. etc. etc.

You're talking to Cornflakes, though, who is an avid sniper in FPS games - something notoriously difficult to do with a console at high speed (the zoom-flick-aim and fire). That's probably the best explanation I can give. Snipers are considerably less of something to worry about on console because they can't be as mobile.
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#42
Talvieno wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:50 pm

You're talking to Cornflakes, though, who is an avid sniper in FPS games - something notoriously difficult to do with a console at high speed (the zoom-flick-aim and fire). That's probably the best explanation I can give. Snipers are considerably less of something to worry about on console because they can't be as mobile.
And yet shooters on consoles are immensely popular, and are played all the time. However, keeping things in check, an X game is not a shooter, nor is it an RTS, and a controller would be just fine for playing an X game. IF, and it is a mighty big IF, it were designed correctly from the getgo.
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#43
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:54 pm
And yet shooters on consoles are immensely popular, and are played all the time. However, keeping things in check, an X game is not a shooter, nor is it an RTS, and a controller would be just fine for playing an X game. IF, and it is a mighty big IF, it were designed correctly from the getgo.
I think thats more an issue of playing the games at all.
Many people dont have computers to play their games on and so they play on the much cheaper consoles.

(i've encountered people who deny any form of utility to pcs, so theres that. Me with a big red hand shaped mark on my face)
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#44
wizaerd wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:54 pm
Talvieno wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:50 pm

You're talking to Cornflakes, though, who is an avid sniper in FPS games - something notoriously difficult to do with a console at high speed (the zoom-flick-aim and fire). That's probably the best explanation I can give. Snipers are considerably less of something to worry about on console because they can't be as mobile.
And yet shooters on consoles are immensely popular, and are played all the time. However, keeping things in check, an X game is not a shooter, nor is it an RTS, and a controller would be just fine for playing an X game. IF, and it is a mighty big IF, it were designed correctly from the getgo.
I would almost agree, except in this particular case. As we saw previously, a lot of the screw-up that was X: Rebirth was directly related to the fact that they initially started trying to design the game for controllers. (The proof is there, google it.) Then partway through, they cut that idea but didn't bother changing everything back to be PC-suited, and as a result the entire game suffered in little areas across the board (because they weren't doing a good job to begin with). I would posit that they probably aren't any better now than they were before. As such, I would say I'd want to keep them away from anything involving consoles at all cost, as they clearly have no clue how to design for them.

If this game isn't being designed by the same guys, though... then sure, why not.


edit: ah, something else I didn't think about. MMORPGs. Don't think that would be remotely doable with a controller - especially the ones with dozens of windows onscreen and lots of customizable/mappable UI buttons so you can cast that one specific spell you need in a hurry.
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Re: X4 - Continuation of X Universe

#45
Never buying another Egosoft product again, ever, PERIOD.

They knowingly and intentionally screwed the fans over with Rebirth. I was a pre-order person who convinced friends to do the same, based on the outright lies shown in the videos they made. After trying fruitlessly to get it to run even halfway well on my completely uber rig at the time, I wrote Steam and requested a refund. Note: I had only ever requested a refund once since joining Steam in 2004, and owned over 2000 titles.

Steam of course refused the refund, despite ~7 hours of testing and *proof* that the game didn't work right. I must have written them 6 or 7 times with links to topics on the Rebirth Steam forums proving that the game was utter shite and didn't work - still no refund. So I'm out $60 and have a lovely new steaming turd I can't return, sold to me based on a campaign of lies.

I've played the X-series of games for a long, long time. I even put a few hundred hours of modding into them for the community. After Rebirth - they lost not only a fan, but they earned an enemy.

Short story - I don't give a rat's arse what they produce now. They owe me $60 and a profuse apology, or they can rot in hell. And honestly - I hope it comes to that. I truly hope they go bankrupt and disappear forever. It will be a good lesson to help motivate other developers/publishers to not try and screw over their communities.

I'll be the first on the slander-wagon if I see an X4 forum open up. They want me to go away, I'll ask for a $60 payment before I do it. Yeah - I'm that pissed at them. They backstabbed all of us, the fans.

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