Hey LTheorists,

for those of you, who like hardcore combat sims, have a look at Rogue System (all others, too ). Kickstarter campain has just started.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/129 ... gue-system

Not sure what to think of it.

My initial thought is that he want too much money. Looking at the stretch goals I don't see why he needs 200.000$ to create mod tools.
Shouldn't these tools be implemented asap, so that any content can be added through it? Looking at myself, being self-employed, I figure a single programmer needs between $1500 and $2000 a month as a wage, depending on his living arrangements. So 200.000$ (-35% taxes, kickstarter, amazon etc) could feed a single programmer for 5.4 years. The same goes really for the other stretch goals.

My second thought is that the game looks cool, and can be very fun.

Looking at what Josh is accomplising on his own, I feel that Rogue System is a very expensive production.

*Strokes chin*

Interesting. I'll put that on the 'perhaps' list. Let's see how he engages withe Kickstartery folks!

I saw this and was initially sceptical, but then I dug a bit and now reckon it's probably quite a good project. Bear in mind it's also a 2-year project, so that makes the price look better. Also bear in mind that it's an older guy, maybe with a family, and that's when we should realise we're extremely lucky to be getting Josh for such a good price, and that we'll need to stump up more for his next project! Programmer man-hours aren't cheap in the big wide world, though KS is often a means to launch someone on their career so we do get them cheaper than otherwise. In any case, it sure looks better value than quite a few other projects I've seen.

In terms of gameplay it's quite different from LT as well as in character; the initial part will really be a military space sim, though further stretch modules could add trading and other features. Someone described it as "Falcon 4 meets Freespace", and it does seem to have a rather "military" feel about it. The physics model is quite interesting as it seems to be scalable between classic and Newtonian, and the pilot's environment will be a factor e.g. G-induced blackouts, freezing if life-support dies, etc.

I'm just chuffed that after waiting so long, we're finally living in a time when there's a resurgence in the genre. I think this one will deserve its place too.

You make sense.
I've read through the lengthy kickstarter page some more, and decided to back it. It's nothing more than a little push in the back, but I wish him luck.
I really enjoyed playing Freespace. Next to Tie Fighter it's the space sim that fueled my love for this genre. So I'm curious where this game will end up.

I am backing it as I like it

o and Limit Theory is all cold, but Rogue System 50%/50% cold and art work (long time to macke so cost a lot)

Hi guys,

I certainly don't want to appear as if I'm trying to promote here at LT's forums; but if no one minds, I was directed here to possibly answer a couple questions/concerns about Rogue System...

First, yes 300K seems a lot, but it's based on average yearly salaries as my experience has shown to be accurate. Let's take for example the 200K mentioned for mod tools. First, it's not JUST mod tools, which means an additional programmer, but also that goal includes the addition of another artist as well. An experienced artist's average professional salary is between 40 and 60K per year (and this is a 2 year development cycle of course). So let's say I found a good mid-range artist at about 45K per year--that's 90K total.

Now, average programmer salaries run about the same and higher actually if they have a LOT of experience, so again you're looking at another 80 to 90K for a good mid-level programmer. So, in total, there's 180K gone right there out of that 200K. You have to remember that most of these folks have families to support and such of course, and if I want them full time I have to be able to support their needs.

Mod tools are not mandatory to develop the content at the lowest production level. They would HELP of course, but not mandatory. Now, at that stretch goal where they are introduced, remember that we'd have another artist and content would be coming much faster, hence the mod tools would really come in handy then.

For the base goal of 300K--first, I'll lose up to 30K to Kickstarter and Amazon in fees. Between state and federal tax I'll lose even more. This will leave enough for my and a full-time artist's salary for two years, with just enough left over that I'll be able to retain the individual who will be doing my music and sound--both critical elements (sound particularly) and cover other expenses.

Josh is doing great for working on his own, as I was for the past two years. Now, I'm not saying Josh can't do what he's said--I think he can; but for the amount of assets Rogue System will need, the quality level I'm shooting for, and the fact that I want to add experienced professionals with common salary requirements, I feel my budgets are right on the money, as it were.

I realize there is a LOT of information at the RogSys kickstarter. I felt that I needed to be as transparent as possible, and give as much information as possible, to help you make an informed decision. And not only about the project, but about me as well--you're pledging to both obviously.

Finally, thank you for the kind words about RogSys, and that you found it worth your pledge. Let me also say that I think Josh is doing a great job over here and I wish him the best of luck on LT.

If you have any other questions, and Josh doesn't mind, I'll be more than happy to respond. You can also feel free to email me at sjuliano @ roguesystemsim . com (no spaces) if you prefer.

Thanks for your time

And Josh, no disrespect intended by coming here and responding to this. Good luck with LT!

I have enjoyed many of the F-[insert number] sims back when they were still being made but nowadays I'm less and less interested in accurate simulations. With that I mean that to fire a missile you have to switch the MFD into the correct RADAR mode, arm the correct weapon, be in the correct aspect angle relative to the target, flip the master arming switch, and... start the lock-on procedure.

I haven't pledged because it sounds like you're setting out to create a complex game... with largely undefined depth.
The choices (on any scale) are what interests me in a game, not how many buttons I can press to make that choice. =)

Rogue System is a smaller scale than LT (as in not commanding entire planets, fleets, and their supply) so it does warrant a higher level of detail with each individual unit. But when the landing with a damaged computer is as complex as landing a damaged craft in Tornado, it starts being work rather than fun.
I'm not saying you didn't find the right balance there. Maybe you did. It's just hard to judge depth of gameplay from the descriptions that mostly list "complexity" items.

One way to increase your target audience would be to include an Arcade Mode where fiddly bits like controlling the atmospheric mix of the pilot's life support do not exist. You would still have to return to base when your life support gets damaged. You just don't have to fiddle with the controls to get an optimal result.

That's perfectly fair--it's certainly not the type of thing that's for everyone, no doubt. It's really the modeling of the ship systems that requires "all those buttons to press," of course. You have to be able to get in there and control everything, especially when automatic systems are damaged/destroyed.

But yes, it will be complex to be sure, on the level of any "hardcore" flight-sim.

@Michael, there may be a way to cater for both, if your design could support a simple systems mode as well as a detailed one.

If you ever tried Falcon 4 (and I bet you have!), it came with both a simple avionics model and a fully detailed one. For example, in simple mode the radar would nicely show enemies in red, in planar map-style positions. Very easy to navigate and find the bad guys without any overhead of button-pushing. In the detailed mode it was a B-scope with different functions, e.g. narrow-field with high scan rate and slewable gates. Now I'm the sort of person who very much prefers the detailed model as it feels like I'm operating real physical systems and so adds to immersion, but I fully accept others have no such interest and want to get on with the flying and fighting. I'm guessing that for every complex system it should be possible to think of a simplistic version too.

So if you have both modes as an option - including an "Arcade mode" as @Gazz says, you'll bring in a wider audience.

Oh, I'm already in, BTW!

There are options to help ease you in. I think I'll update the KS page to talk about these a bit--good idea...

Hey Michael, thanks very much for taking the time to come over and give us some more details! I think we all appreciate it. I've just backed, and hope that you get the opportunity to complete this dream of yours

Best of luck!

PS ~ You've done an awesome job of making the interface immersive! Very cool how all of it is actually part of the cockpit.

Cheers, Josh--thanks for the kind words and your support. I really appreciate it

Good luck man. I know getting started with game development in this environment isn't easy. I hope you reach your goal.

DWMagus wrote:Good luck man. I know getting started with game development in this environment isn't easy. I hope you reach your goal.

Thanks so much--very appreciated