Return to “Games”

Post

Re: Mass Effect: Andromeda

#226
I still haven't tried Andromeda, but:

Damocles wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:48 pm
(the renegade + paragon system was certainly more entertaining than this confused design with 4 "approaches" that did not mean anything in the end)

This is actually the one thing that would make me want to risk wading through Manveer Hier's personal problems!

I don't know if their implementation of four distinct approaches was undercooked, but the concept itself really grabbed me when I read up on it back in March of 2017 and commented here about it:

I can't find anyone else talking about this, but the four dialogue modes in ME:A look to me to have been inspired directly by the four original Bartle types... which I consider to be game-context expressions of general temperament.

Here's one description I've seen of the four ME:A modes:

  • Casual: For the Ryder who likes to hang loose, crack jokes and deal out the occasional sarcastic quip. Can endear you to some characters, but more reserved individuals will bristle at your flippancy.
  • Professional: Strictly business. For the professional-minded Ryder, it's hip to be square.
  • Logical: Assess the situation dispassionately, using the facts as your disposal. You might end up hurting some people's feelings along the way, though.
  • Emotional: This option usually indicates a sympathetic, understanding, kind answer from Ryder, but it can also be used to play an impulsive or hot-headed character, depending on the situation.

These are almost instantly identifiable as the four fundamental, neurochemically-guided personality styles that show up IMO as the four Bartle types:

Casual: the Artisan/Killer (Manipulator) style, which seeks strong sensations through risk-taking and the adept tactical manipulation of people and objects.
Professional: the Guardian/Achiever style, which believes the Right Thing is to win by playing hard but within proper logistical rules and processes.
Logical: the Rational/Explorer style, which emphasizes discovery, strategic planning, and thoughtful creativity, but sometimes isn't so good at dealing with people.
Emotional: the visionary Idealist/Socializer style, which emphasizes diplomatic caring for people (including fictional characters) but doesn't always consider unintended outcomes.

I believe this approach could work in a game to help characters feel more believable as people... but I also think a half-hearted implementation could just be really confusing and feel like it works against enjoyable gameplay instead of enhancing it.
Post

Re: Mass Effect: Andromeda

#227
Flatfingers wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:47 am
Casual: the Artisan/Killer (Manipulator) style, which seeks strong sensations through risk-taking and the adept tactical manipulation of people and objects.
Professional: the Guardian/Achiever style, which believes the Right Thing is to win by playing hard but within proper logistical rules and processes.
Logical: the Rational/Explorer style, which emphasizes discovery, strategic planning, and thoughtful creativity, but sometimes isn't so good at dealing with people.
Emotional: the visionary Idealist/Socializer style, which emphasizes diplomatic caring for people (including fictional characters) but doesn't always consider unintended outcomes.
For emotional, I would even argue that the character is not necessarily acting nice and caring, but someone who has just way more emotions to approach problems and situations.
This one can also act very irrational and irresponsible, being rude to the wrong people in the wrong situation without thinking, and reacting impulsively.
So a street bully can also be very emotional. People then often get afraid the protagonist is overreacting.

Casual is often misused as the "funny joker". (and used like that in MEA to crack some flat one-liners).
I would understand "casual" more of someone who tries to defuse situations by making someone feel more easy. The charismatic type.
But also angering people a lot who dont like the character, and dont feel like joking with them. Overstepping bounds and then getting the backfire.

Logical is often misused as portraying the "boring nerd" trope. But that should mean someone who tries to solve something in a way often overlooked by others. Surprising the opponent with a connection that other could not make. But also getting angry and insecure in situations that lack concrete facts.
Also showing understanding the reasoning behind unfriendly adversaries actions, explaining that to the party members - thus making them angry.
And someone who asks more questions about topics, that others take for granted (making others sometimes feel they get interrogated)

Professional I would portrait as someone why has few principles, but those being fundamental and non negotiable.
The character is keeping more relaxed than others in unpleasant situations, being the last one who would panic. Someone who does not respond being verbally bullied, but when someone holds a loaded weapon to a friends head is shooting immediately without warning. Also someone who sticks to a plan, even if a separate opportunity arises.
(sometimes missing out a valuable chance, but sometimes thus not falling into a trap)

----

MEA used the system mostly for making some changes in the tone of the one-liners, without a proper reaction be the others.
There was not much roleplaying, And I just used the same option at one point, making the dialog run more fluently.
The paragon/renegade system at least gave back the player a stat-change, thus unlocking more interesting action later in the game (and in the following games)
Overall a much more rewarding system.
Post

Re: Mass Effect: Andromeda

#228
Thanks, Damocles -- that's a nice summary.

I'd like to see someone really put in the effort to offer the kind of deeper characterizations (which still aren't highly individualized, but it's a starting point) we're talking about here.

In the meantime, I can see how a simpler system is probably better if the focus needs to be more on gameplay and mechanics.
Post

Re: Mass Effect: Andromeda

#229
Flatfingers wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:42 am
Thanks, Damocles -- that's a nice summary.

I'd like to see someone really put in the effort to offer the kind of deeper characterizations (which still aren't highly individualized, but it's a starting point) we're talking about here.

In the meantime, I can see how a simpler system is probably better if the focus needs to be more on gameplay and mechanics.
Personally, I'd keep the paragon/renegade system. I agree with guys like Raycevik on a lot of things, but I think his criticism of the paragon/renegade system comes from a misunderstanding of what the two stances actually stand for. Paragon isn't necessarily good and renegade isn't necessarily evil. Generally, paragon is for more cooperation and is less xenophobic and renegade is more "I know best" and human-first. Renegade also takes more shortcuts. More often than not, the two stances actually get you to the same conclusion. How you affect other people in pursuit of the final outcome is most important in the paragon/renegade system.

There are two changes I'd make to the system. First, I'd have a way to reward players who take a more pragmatic approach. Once you start out on the paragon or renegade path, you are encouraged to stay on one of the paths throughout the entire trilogy. A player who switches back and forth sacrifices the benefits of being full paragon or full renegade. There should be a "purple" option for those who have built a reputation that they take different stances based on the situation. I'd pair this change with having more meaningful differences in outcome based on paragon/renegade decisions. Looking back, it is hard for me to think of a time where I felt like I was at a disadvantage for playing as a paragon. I would like if the game confronted me with choices that make the renegade choices attractive for someone who plays paragon and vice versa.
Post

Re: Mass Effect: Andromeda

#231
In the end there a many possible systems. MEA just had bad (compared to ME 1-3) writing and character presentation.

BTW: making every paragon/renegate decision add up to a final score will push the players into having just one choice. And thats not situational rolepaying then.
I would only count certain drastic choices to the overall score. For less impactful choices Im happy of just having varying reaction be the dialog partners.
Post

Re: Mass Effect: Andromeda

#232
Oh well, the Reviews for Anthem come in, placing the the "ultimate" game from Bioware around the 60% mark.
Maybe Andromeda was not so bad after all... compared to what else they can currently pull off.

Lets see if Anthem sells, and Bioware survives 2019... But whoever wrote the story for Anthem better not make the story for a possible new Mass Effect... Anthem's story is just boring, replacable and stereotyped.

Online Now

Users browsing this forum: BFett, Google [Bot] and 2 guests

cron