System Shock - The Remake

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Re: System Shock - The Remake

Postby Dinosawer » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:41 am

Aye, I like the difficulty levels. I'm generally not for hard combat but like puzzles, so I turned combat to 1 and puzzles to 3. Should have put cyberspace to 1 too, but I didn't know what it was :ghost:
That's one part I didn't enjoy much - the wireframe graphics made navigating a massive headache, since there's literally not visual difference between a wall and an opening in said wall.

I didn't really use the Assault Rifle, actually - I went pipe - Sparq+Dartgun - Pistol - Flechette - Magnum - Plasma rifle, which I both love and hate, with some magpulse, laser rapier and railgun for hard enemies.

Flatfingers wrote:Finally, I'm curious whether you, Dinosawer, and others would agree that System Shock is as "immersive" as its fans have claimed it is.

Well, keeping in mind that I only really started gaming in 2012, and thus am used to modern day graphics, and that nevertheless it managed to keep me immersed enough to keep me playing for hours a day until I finished it, and kept me on the edge of my seat most of the time and scared the crap out of me at times (granted, I am easy to scare, but still), all with DOS graphics, I'd say the answer is a resounding "yes". :ghost:
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Re: System Shock - The Remake

Postby Flatfingers » Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:01 am

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Re: System Shock - The Remake

Postby Dinosawer » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:18 am

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Re: System Shock - The Remake

Postby Flatfingers » Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:00 pm

NightDive have finally opened up their own forums: http://forums.nightdivestudios.com/index.php .
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Re: System Shock - The Remake

Postby Dinosawer » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:34 am

They changed to unreal engine, and switched to another art style:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/15 ... ts/1820162

... I liked the previous art a lot better :problem:
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Re: System Shock - The Remake

Postby Talvieno » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:32 am

I don't know... I see good things in both. I do like the original a little better, though I could understand why they switched.
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Re: System Shock - The Remake

Postby Dinosawer » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:37 am

The original was colourful, like the original System Shock. This one is just... grey. Like every other AAA game. :ghost:
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Re: System Shock - The Remake

Postby Talvieno » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:38 am

In the first one it seemed harder to understand what was going on. I remember it as "visually messy and confusing". At the same time, I really did like all those pretty lights and bloom, though.
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Re: System Shock - The Remake

Postby Dinosawer » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:40 am

I don't think it was, and if anything that would have to do with the resolution. Making everything grey doesn't make images easier to recognise ...
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Re: System Shock - The Remake

Postby Flatfingers » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:19 am

The latest -- which has me JUST a bit grumpy -- is that they switched to Unreal a few months ago because it was "better" for consoles, whatever that means.

Also, they're changing how the player will be able to move through the locations of the game because Metroidvania. As if that's somehow a sufficient reason for these people to alter the original game's design.

I'm actually not concerned about the graphics; this is early stuff. They'll de-plastic it and swap in more of the Citadel Station art assets. Plus I never liked the unnecessarily pixelized textures of the Unity version; this is better.

It's the arrogance of the NightDive team to go screwing around with the original game's fantastic design -- you know, the reason people actually gave NightDive money to do an updated version -- that's making me not at all happy.

But along with that arrogance comes the "we know best" mindset; they're not listening to anyone but their own egos. All I can do is hope this new game loosely inspired by System Shock will be a kind of fun in its own right, which I do. I don't really have anything against NightDive or Stephen Kick. He did a great job recovering the copyright, which is his to do with now as he pleases.

It's just... if you care that much about a game to get the rights to it, why would you immediately start changing it? Does not compute. :evil:
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Re: System Shock - The Remake

Postby Scytale » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:21 pm

Flatfingers wrote:The latest -- which has me JUST a bit grumpy -- is that they switched to Unreal a few months ago because it was "better" for consoles, whatever that means.

Also, they're changing how the player will be able to move through the locations of the game because Metroidvania. As if that's somehow a sufficient reason for these people to alter the original game's design.

I'm actually not concerned about the graphics; this is early stuff. They'll de-plastic it and swap in more of the Citadel Station art assets. Plus I never liked the unnecessarily pixelized textures of the Unity version; this is better.

It's the arrogance of the NightDive team to go screwing around with the original game's fantastic design -- you know, the reason people actually gave NightDive money to do an updated version -- that's making me not at all happy.

But along with that arrogance comes the "we know best" mindset; they're not listening to anyone but their own egos. All I can do is hope this new game loosely inspired by System Shock will be a kind of fun in its own right, which I do. I don't really have anything against NightDive or Stephen Kick. He did a great job recovering the copyright, which is his to do with now as he pleases.

It's just... if you care that much about a game to get the rights to it, why would you immediately start changing it? Does not compute. :evil:



I guess this is just repeating what you said, but I thought one of the selling points of this thing was that it was a 'shot-for-shot' remake i.e. only a graphics and animation overhaul of the original. It defeats the purpose of the exercise as stated to go changing it..?!

I don't understand the logic. And the 'we know best' mentality screams of lack of self-awareness
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Re: System Shock - The Remake

Postby Flatfingers » Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:54 pm

They started walking back the word "remake" pretty quickly, even during the Kickstarter, so some of the responsibility for backing this is on me.

That said, the impression I have -- and it's no stronger than that -- is that soon after they re-released the original (based on a fan-modded version) on GOG, they started thinking about doing a remake: new graphics, better audio effects, WASD+mouselook controls.

Then they realized that licensing a graphics engine meant opening up the remake to console gamers. Then they realized that most people were talking about System Shock 2, which added an RPG leveling mechanic to the gear-based progression of the original System Shock. Then they started thinking of other things they personally enjoyed, like Metroidvania-style play, which led to other ideas for "improving" the original game...

...at which point they figured they'd better stop calling this project by the now wildly-inaccurate term "remake." It's now officially a "reboot."

My irritation is not so much with any one of those decisions in isolation. It's more that NightDive make no attempt to justify, or even explain, why they believe it's appropriate to alter the original team's game to impose features they personally enjoy. It's just, "we're doing it," or the insultingly vague "it's necessary."

This is frustrating because I really do appreciate what Kick and the NightDive team have done to rescue some great games. I just wish, if they're going to sell a revival of System Shock to the fans who kept it alive all these years, that they'd retain the design that made this such a fantastic game in the first place!
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Re: System Shock - The Remake

Postby Damocles » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:08 pm

Hm, there is bad "reboots" and good "reboots".
XCOM had a very good reboot. Fallout had a well received re-imagination of the world.

Lets hope its going to be something similar with System Shock.

You cant deny, that reimplementing a gameplay 1:1 from 1994 with just updated rendering would work poorly.
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Re: System Shock - The Remake

Postby Flatfingers » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:10 am

Damocles wrote:You cant deny, that reimplementing a gameplay 1:1 from 1994 with just updated rendering would work poorly.

Watch me. :D I do deny that, and most emphatically.

If you backed the Kickstarter, you could download the Unity version that recreated part of the first level of the original System Shock. There were some things missing... and yet it clearly had plenty of the fun of the original game. It looked fantastic, which is exactly what it needed, but nothing of what made the original game great would have been improved by changing the gameplay.

It's probably worth talking about Fallout here. I played both Fallout 1 & 2, and then Bethesda's Fallout. I didn't hate Fallout 3. It was so different, moving to real-time first-person 3D, that it didn't -- and still doesn't -- make sense to compare it to the first two turn-based tactical isometric games. The new Fallout had to be taken on its own terms, and on its own terms, it's a great gameplay experience.

So back to System Shock: if NightDive were similarly going to make their version radically different, I wouldn't be griping quite as much. I'd still be bummed that they chose not to release a version of the original with modern graphics. But the new game would be so different that there'd be no point in criticizing it for not being a simple graphical update. NightDive isn't doing that, though. Their new version isn't going to be anything like as different as F3 was from F2 -- it's the desired graphical update with some arbitrary tinkering added. This makes it the worst of both worlds: not a fully new game, but not simply a respectful update of just the graphics and audio, either.

I've played SS once nearly every year since it was released. I feel like I know it pretty well, and I can't think of anything on the game design side that was arguably "wrong" and needs modification. But maybe I'm too close to it, and lack perspective. So I'm curious: what specific gameplay features of System Shock do you think are visibly defective -- in other words, not just "I don't enjoy that" but "this visibly impairs the other features of the game"? Or are you making a general objection -- you just can't imagine that any game released in 1994 could still be fun to play today?
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Re: System Shock - The Remake

Postby Dinosawer » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:13 am

Having played System Shock for the first time last year, I disagree with the notion that the gameplay is lacking by modern standards - the only thing it's missing is a decent UI and a graphics overhaul.

If they want to change the gameplay, why not do it in SS3...
oh wait, someone else is making that one :ghost:
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