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Re: Elite Dangerous

#61
StockportJambo wrote:You will all buy it when it comes out & Braben delivers something groundbreaking and amazing
That's a given but at this point it's still an "if", not a "when".
I do believe that the guy delivers what he wants to. I do not believe that the game is focused on the things *I* like. He can follow hos dream on his own time, TYVM.

And cheaper? A few months after release the price is going to drop below of what it is now.

Those are facts, too.

StockportJambo wrote:£300 lets you onto the design forum, where you can influence the direction of the game design.
And having money to throw around means that these people have more useful ideas and suggestions...?
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: Elite Dangerous

#62
Gazz wrote:
StockportJambo wrote:You will all buy it when it comes out & Braben delivers something groundbreaking and amazing
That's a given but at this point it's still an "if", not a "when".
True enough. It isn't funded yet. :cry:

The unfounded negativity that is around doesn't help in that regard either.
Gazz wrote: I do believe that the guy delivers what he wants to. I do not believe that the game is focused on the things *I* like. He can follow hos dream on his own time, TYVM.
Fair comment, each to their own. Only to say that part of Elite's longevity and charm is down to the fact that the game isn't focussed on any one thing, it's a complete sandbox. You choose your own path.
Gazz wrote: And cheaper? A few months after release the price is going to drop below of what it is now.
Debatable. And moot if the game isn't funded to begin with.
Gazz wrote:
StockportJambo wrote:£300 lets you onto the design forum, where you can influence the direction of the game design.
And having money to throw around means that these people have more useful ideas and suggestions...?
It doesn't, no, but it offers a chance to influence the game direction towards where you'd like to see it go. They have to limit it somehow, they can't just open a free-for-all, you might get some gems in there, but the signal to noise ratio would be too low to make it worth Frontier's time to read them.
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Re: Elite Dangerous

#63
I think a lot of the negativity is justified, like the fact that FD and DB didn't bother to say anything about SP offline, until fairly late in the KS, then the storm that followed, and the U turn, and the changing / edting of the FAQ

as for the price tag, if it gets funded, and if it appears on steam, steam will not sell the game for £80 that includes all expansions, I think the price tag of £60 would have been better, but even then, there been no word on how many confirmed expansions there will be anyway, so the steep price of £80 (digital) I think is very over inflated, as a season pass is sometimes what £30 if that? for say 3 or 4 DLC? depending on the game, but like I said, there is no guaranteed amount, so they are putting in a price that they think each expansion is worth £10 / 15 maybe more?

@StockportJambo
LT isn';t copying Elite, its copying Freelancer, so technically what you said isn't exactly true, and freelancer was done by Chris Roberts, not David Braben and Ian Bell, (and people seem to forget him when it comes to Elite, sure he had no part in frontier, but DB did screw him over, especailly with FFE,

while frontier wasn't a bad bad, it wasn't a brilliant game either, the flight mechanics and combat was horrible, sure it was ground breaking, but it did have a lot of flaws,

as for ED, I guess we have to wait and see, if it gets funded, and it's still looking to be pretty close,

I won't be getting it, I backed it, but will not back it again, ED KS hasn't been well done at all, but anyway, I just not bothered with getting it, maybe when it reaches the bargain bins or a steam sale, then I might, but I think then it will probably be £15 or cheaper, then might be a good thing to get, as for the expansions, planet landings, I really wonder still how they are going to handle that? unless those with expansions are on separate servers, from those without? but if those with expansions are on the same servers as those without the expansions? I wonder how that will be fair? or deal with? you chasing someone with planet landings (but you don't have the expansion) then those with can enter the planet and use as a shield or a means of escape, this is why I think the game is too ambitious, in EVE, they add new sectors, and everyone shares the same code base, but in Elite, this will not be possible? unless for those that try and enter the planet, gets destroyed by some sort of defences? but again how is that fair? unless they make planet landings DLC mandatory if you want to play online? this is one aspect I dont really understand

at the end of the day, if it appears on steam, and doesn't sell that well, and neither does the DLC, then both will be on sale, there is no way steam will sell this game for for £80, it simply won't sell, and I won't touch it at that price, so really, the £80 is very steep, too steep for digital online sellers, but anyway, the list of DLC or the amount I don't think has been confirmed, only planet landings, and I don't think it will be that great, or be too much for many systems at high detail, so really, if a fraction of the users can see the level of detail, then I don't really think planet landings is really needed
Post

Re: Elite Dangerous

#64
matthewfarmery wrote:I think a lot of the negativity is justified, like the fact that FD and DB didn't bother to say anything about SP offline, until fairly late in the KS, then the storm that followed, and the U turn, and the changing / edting of the FAQ
Main reason for that I think is that they didn't actually know themselves. That's not so terrible is it? After all, they have a year to design & develop this game (and are looking to do this with fan input) so many of the finer points like that weren't really decided at the point that the KS went live. The design has only really been painted in broad strokes. The gaps will be filled in later.
matthewfarmery wrote:LT isn';t copying Elite, its copying Freelancer, so technically what you said isn't exactly true, and freelancer was done by Chris Roberts, not David Braben and Ian Bell
... and by virtue, Freelancer "copied" Elite. Elite was first - something that Chris Roberts is very well aware of, and why he has been so gracious & helpful in his support of David in trying to get Elite: Dangerous off the ground. Any open ended space game (including LT) owes something to Elite.
matthewfarmery wrote:while frontier wasn't a bad bad, it wasn't a brilliant game either, the flight mechanics and combat was horrible, sure it was ground breaking, but it did have a lot of flaws,
Publically acknowledged by David Braben, and looking to be corrected in E:D.

As for the rest of your post - no, the DLC hasn't been decided yet, how much of it there will be, what order it will be developed in, and how much it will cost. That's part of what the design forum will be for. £80 will buy you all DLC for free when it comes out. £20 (though there are very few left, if any) will buy you the basic game.

Right now, they are concentrating on getting the basic game funded, and hopefully the Mac stretch goal as well. Everything else will be looked at afterwards.
Post

Re: Elite Dangerous

#65
but I think this is part of the problem with ED, unknown amount of DLC, SP offline wasn't confirmed until later, even though it should have been crystal clear that people wanted a SP offline mode, without ever connecting to a online server, because if they did force the game online all the time or online to play SP still, this would have violated their no DRM FAQ question,

they should have been far more clear on what type of game they wanted, and should have been more upfront about it, not changing the rules as they see fit, and like I said before, sure that £80 buys the game and expansions, but the issue I was referring too is when it hits online sellers, like steam and Greenman gaming, as they won't sell the game at that price, it won;t sell, they would have to bring down the price, and the other issue is with the DLC themselves, how will the server handle those with and without? and making sure those without planet landings don't get planet landings missions and the like? unless they make it that both parties use different servers? I brought up EVE, at least with eve, when they add expansions, everyone shares the same code, as it adds new sectors, new missions and the like, but ED isn't doing that,

really stuff like that I think they probably not worked out yet, I still think once the finer points are worked out, they might realise what they are trying to do might not be possible, or might take too long to do, but this might end up costing FD a lot of money, online servers aren't cheap, but if they are expecting a lot of players too, what about trading? in the FAQ it mentions that a player could meet hundreds of AI ships but 32 real players, I wonder iif that is per sector? but if that is the case, then what about the economy, how will they handle inflation? or the lack of goods, because too many people trade between the same planets all the time? I don't know how its handled in EVE, I don't play that, or what trading there is in eve, but the way DB is describing it in, the trade dev diary, I simply don't see it working, it won't drive the market, it will causing massive inflation as people will keep trading between similar planets, then the lack of goods on planet A, because everyone has bought everything from that planet, but then, selling it to planet B, if everyone does it at the same time, will cause the places to fall, so no profit, so you might have to travel farther away to get any kind of profit

it was fine in frontier, as it wasn't really a dynamic universe, even in LT, it shouldn't really be an issue, or it might be, if Josh goes for a dynamic trade system, but for ED, this will be thousands of players trading between planets, prices will fall, even if several players sell to a world that has famine, how long will the food price remain high? with enough food, the price will fall, the whole dynamic apporuch could very well be a major flop, sure it one way of making money, but its also was a good way of making money in Elite / Frontier, once you know a few trade routes

so really, I think this could very well cause a lot of problems, and lets not forogt, that of the intiire universe, only a fraction of it will be inhabited, they might even have to change that, make more areas with colonies, to help counter having too many people in the same zones

so I think what they are saying might not necessary will happen, once they realise that some elements might end up breaking the game, and breaking balance

edit

the other thing is, while everyone remembers DB for doing Elite and frontier and FFE, for the original Elite, Ian Bell did a lot of work on the game too, including the flight mechanics
there is an interesting interview done by Ian Bell, and also goes into some detail of the degrading relationship with DB and how DB screwed Ian Bell over FFE, so to get away from paying royalties, because the deal was that DB paid Ian bell for using some of the elements from Elite, but FFE was going to be a mission disk, but the game engine / code couldn't handle it, so DB made FFE a full game, so this meant he didn't need to pay royalties anymore,

http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/elite/ar ... 081501.htm

if you not read the interview its worth a read, but I say its sad, that people don't remember Ian Bell when it comes to the name of Elite, sure he had no part in frontier, but if he had, I think the game would have been far better then it was, plus both frontier and FFE was rushed, which didn't help matters either
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Re: Elite Dangerous

#66
matthewfarmery wrote:... but I say its sad, that people don't remember Ian Bell when it comes to the name of Elite...
Ian Bell is very much remembered (and highly respected) by many - we even sent him some Xmas presents a couple of years ago.
If all my days was hills to climb, and circles without reason
If all I was, was passin' time, my life was just a season
Post

Re: Elite Dangerous

#67
Matthewfarmery,

You're making the mistake of seeing FD clarify the issues that hadn't been thought about internally, with "changing the rules as they see fit". There was never a detailed design to begin with.

All they had when the Kickstarter began was a few tech demos of some isolated code they'd written. They were completely upfront about requiring the money to develop the game. Maybe you don't know much about software development (I do, having done it professionally for almost 25 years) but, after the "idea" (which costs nothing) comes the "design" phase, which does cost money. It's a standard part of the development cycle.

The Kickstarter campaign is purely about selling the "idea".

Elite 4. Are you in or out?

For most people who played & loved the originals, that's all that's needed.

Sure, it's a risk, but a calculated one. We know who is creating it. We know his track record. We know his company's track record. We know that there's nobody else on the planet capable of creating a sequel to Elite / Frontier besides him. We know that the world needs this game to be made.

Now, with all that said, I'm not for a minute suggesting that this has been a perfectly run Kickstarter campaign. Far from it. Many mistakes have been made, particularly in the beginning, and it seemed to take Frontier a month to get used to the system & what was expected of them. However, it's improved enormously since the early days & at the end of the day, the Kickstarter campaign fluff is just marketing. And I'm not interested in backing what is best marketed - I'm interested in the underlying product. And that promises to be stunning.

Incidentally, nobody disputes Ian Bell's contribution to the original Elite. But he stopped writing games, and he and Braben went their separate ways. It happens. Sad, but life goes on. I gather they're good friends again now.
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Re: Elite Dangerous

#68
I'm out.
And no, I don't care whether they started on the wrong foot or not. I don't even need any tech demo or gameplay footage at all. That may help with some no-names (Sorry, Josh! =) but I'm positive that Frontier Development can model a ship of any kind and make it fly from A to B or fire pew pew lasers.
The reason why I'm out is the game's focus. That hasn't changed at all in all the updates. Well, the FAQ was updated to promise limited single-player support. Yay and woo.

I even wish them luck in making the best game ever because I could be totally wrong. They are just not promising the game *I* want to play. That's why they are not getting my money.
If you like their sales pitch - awesome. I may just be your dream game. You supporting your dream game is what Kickstarter is all about!

But the whole solidarity thing and supporting the franchise? That may work on kids. It does me no good if the franchise does not produce the games I want to play. I may be a grumpy old-fashioned coot but if you want my money, you have to at least promise me something I want. Or no deal.
Or in case of LT, you may have to pretend liking some of the mad schemes I come up with. =)
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
Post

Re: Elite Dangerous

#69
Gazz wrote:Or in case of LT, you may have to pretend liking some of the mad schemes I come up with. =)
Bahaha. I don't see anyone pretending :roll:

But seriously. Who wouldn't appreciate your ability to identify and analyze the minutia of pretty much any concept!!
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
Post

Re: Elite Dangerous

#70
Gazz wrote:I'm out.
And no, I don't care whether they started on the wrong foot or not. I don't even need any tech demo or gameplay footage at all. That may help with some no-names (Sorry, Josh! =) but I'm positive that Frontier Development can model a ship of any kind and make it fly from A to B or fire pew pew lasers.
The reason why I'm out is the game's focus. That hasn't changed at all in all the updates. Well, the FAQ was updated to promise limited single-player support. Yay and woo.

I even wish them luck in making the best game ever because I could be totally wrong. They are just not promising the game *I* want to play. That's why they are not getting my money.
If you like their sales pitch - awesome. I may just be your dream game. You supporting your dream game is what Kickstarter is all about!

But the whole solidarity thing and supporting the franchise? That may work on kids. It does me no good if the franchise does not produce the games I want to play. I may be a grumpy old-fashioned coot but if you want my money, you have to at least promise me something I want. Or no deal.
Or in case of LT, you may have to pretend liking some of the mad schemes I come up with. =)
That's fair enough Gazz, as you say, it's what Kickstarter is all about.

Out of interest though, what is it that you do want? I'm curious as to what Limit Theory offers that Elite 4 doesn't?

And no, it's not about supporting the "franchise" for me. It's about re-igniting a genre that's been shunned by publishers for decades, with an updated version of the game that started it all. I backed Star Citizen and Limit Theory as well. If Elite 4 comes off, 2014 is going to be gaming nirvana for me.
Post

Re: Elite Dangerous

#71
StockportJambo wrote:
Gazz wrote:I'm out.
And no, I don't care whether they started on the wrong foot or not. I don't even need any tech demo or gameplay footage at all. That may help with some no-names (Sorry, Josh! =) but I'm positive that Frontier Development can model a ship of any kind and make it fly from A to B or fire pew pew lasers.
The reason why I'm out is the game's focus. That hasn't changed at all in all the updates. Well, the FAQ was updated to promise limited single-player support. Yay and woo.

I even wish them luck in making the best game ever because I could be totally wrong. They are just not promising the game *I* want to play. That's why they are not getting my money.
If you like their sales pitch - awesome. I may just be your dream game. You supporting your dream game is what Kickstarter is all about!

But the whole solidarity thing and supporting the franchise? That may work on kids. It does me no good if the franchise does not produce the games I want to play. I may be a grumpy old-fashioned coot but if you want my money, you have to at least promise me something I want. Or no deal.
Or in case of LT, you may have to pretend liking some of the mad schemes I come up with. =)
That's fair enough Gazz, as you say, it's what Kickstarter is all about.

Out of interest though, what is it that you do want? I'm curious as to what Limit Theory offers that Elite 4 doesn't?

And no, it's not about supporting the "franchise" for me. It's about re-igniting a genre that's been shunned by publishers for decades, with an updated version of the game that started it all. I backed Star Citizen and Limit Theory as well. If Elite 4 comes off, 2014 is going to be gaming nirvana for me.

I am drawn to Elite. I like the ships styles of Elite, its multiplayer, its dog fighting style, the fact there is not too much space dust and nebula and its history.

LT is different with fleets and world ownership.

They are very different games. Both will be very great I am thinking.
Last edited by Jason S on Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
Post

Re: Elite Dangerous

#72
StockportJambo wrote:Matthewfarmery,

You're making the mistake of seeing FD clarify the issues that hadn't been thought about internally, with "changing the rules as they see fit". There was never a detailed design to begin with.

All they had when the Kickstarter began was a few tech demos of some isolated code they'd written. They were completely upfront about requiring the money to develop the game. Maybe you don't know much about software development (I do, having done it professionally for almost 25 years) but, after the "idea" (which costs nothing) comes the "design" phase, which does cost money. It's a standard part of the development cycle.

The Kickstarter campaign is purely about selling the "idea".

Elite 4. Are you in or out?

For most people who played & loved the originals, that's all that's needed.

Sure, it's a risk, but a calculated one. We know who is creating it. We know his track record. We know his company's track record. We know that there's nobody else on the planet capable of creating a sequel to Elite / Frontier besides him. We know that the world needs this game to be made.

Now, with all that said, I'm not for a minute suggesting that this has been a perfectly run Kickstarter campaign. Far from it. Many mistakes have been made, particularly in the beginning, and it seemed to take Frontier a month to get used to the system & what was expected of them. However, it's improved enormously since the early days & at the end of the day, the Kickstarter campaign fluff is just marketing. And I'm not interested in backing what is best marketed - I'm interested in the underlying product. And that promises to be stunning.

Incidentally, nobody disputes Ian Bell's contribution to the original Elite. But he stopped writing games, and he and Braben went their separate ways. It happens. Sad, but life goes on. I gather they're good friends again now.
StockportJambo - Spot. On.

To all the people with negative goggles on at the moment - Hopefully you will be able to take them off before the kickstarter ends. Only one chance to be a founder!! ;)
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Re: Elite Dangerous

#73
Founding Elite is too high for me unless you mean supporter founder. I am at the level to get expansions and now the 85 pound starting position.

One reason I am supporting Elite is that I am fed up of playing multiplayer games where I cannot easily find people to play in GMT friendly times. Elite has quite a following of those that live in GMT friendly hours and I am hoping there will be starting evening group(s) one evening a week to play this game at times where I can actually participate.
Anyway I will be discussing that on their private discussion forum.
Post

Re: Elite Dangerous

#75
StockportJambo wrote:Out of interest though, what is it that you do want? I'm curious as to what Limit Theory offers that Elite 4 doesn't?
A single player game that doesn't sacrifice or balance anything to make multiplayer work.
Since I can build my own ships and stations in LT, there is much more to tinker with. While that is no guarantee for better game balance (rather the opposite =), I can try to beat the system. Of course, being a balance nut myself, I'll do anything I can to prevent the worst balancing blunders and winning strategies. It's a bit like playing chess against myself. =)

Of course, if you want to read it that way, ED lists many of the same features LT does. It's just that they are mentioned in passing, not in any kind of detail. That tells me that these features are not the focus of the game. Multiplayer is, because that is mentioned everywhere and in detail.

Incidentally, that's also the reason why Telepath Tactics didn't get funded. The sales pitch was worded badly, saying that it supports 2-6 players. Even though it meant that the multiplayer part supports 2-6 players, many stopped listening at this point. So did I. The creator will try again, putting much more emphasis on the single-player content. =)
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.

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