NucNuc wrote:

Jason Schupfer wrote:My main worry is that they put the kickstarter requirement too high.

You call THAT high ????

Have you seen what that brat Chris Roberts did with his re-re-reinventing Wing Commander now called "Star Citizen" and "Squadron 42" ??

maybe you are forgetting that the SC campaign and many others are in dollars and the ED is in pounds?

so what they are asking for is roughly 2 million dollars and that is a lot, even PE and wasteland 2 didn't ask for that, PE wanted 1.1 mill that is in the region of around £650 roughly, as the conversion rates do change sometimes

sure SC did roughly ask for that, but not on KS, so yes, 1.2 million pounds is a lot to ask for

Dear Atarun, I apologize, if I might have offended you.
TBH, I grabbed my "golden ticket" as soon as the announcement reached central europe.

But the more the campaign went on the more I got dissapointed by what was stated on RSI and had to remember Chris Roberts history.
He started the wing commander series, with a big and good team that backed his ideas, ... and sorted them out. He only gave the ideas.
Then he left.
He made StarLancer, well had the idea and a great team that ... read above.
He started FreeLancer, and SOLD his team, when they didn't delivered, what he thought of.
The rest of games he'd made are - for gods sake - mostly forgotten.

Then he went on making some - at best - mediocre films.

And now he stands up, claiming HE is the hero to RESCUE space sim gaming ???
As if there hasn't been any : No Freespace2, now FreespaceOpen, no X-series by egosoft, no Evrochon, great sequel of independent StarWraith, no HomeWorld2, no EVEonline, no ....
no continuing efforts of a dedicated community of gamers and modders to FINISH, what he has left unfinished : FreeLancer

Well, and what does he delivers ? A graphical upgraded ... Wing Commander on a bought engine.

Sry to be so long on that. Take it as a sign of how dissapointed I am.
I wish Chris Roberts all the best and hope for all the backers, that he (this time) delivers.


On the other side David Braben has been an active AND successfull game developer all the years.
Therefore I think he has the standing and background to start that high.

I don't think DB has been successful either, the company has been working on a game called outsider for 6 years but got canned, they fired a bunch of people and the management made excuses, saying tat the game isn't canned, its on the backburners and they not secured a publisher either

so really I don't think DB can claim either he is as good as he think he is

both have faults

I like the Freelancer game. So Chris Roberts left, that was years ago. As Kickstarter states on their site, developers who promote their work there, is also putting their reputation. Josh is building his reputation on there, pretty much the same. Whoever uses Kickstarter to attract funding will be held accountable, not only legally but a lousy return will practically dent their otherwise stellar resumes. Their careers will be affected. The stakes nowadays are higher than years ago. Chris and his team has good reason to celebrate, but he will have to work it. Too early to count him out.

NucNuc wrote:Dear Atarun, I apologize, if I might have offended you.

Well, you did not offend me, but you did anger me a little. What's the thing with calling Chris Roberts a "brat?"
You seem to have a well thought-out series of argument against him, then why resort to calling names?

One thing in his favor though: he backed LT and commented that he did so (knowing full well that endorsement would help) and said he would like to hire Josh. What was he gaining doing that?
On the other hand, David Braben who seems to have a stellar record (pun intended) in your mind (for me, his team spent many many years developing really really crappy games, but that's just my taste and opinion), has launched a Kickstarter campaign asking for an ungodly sum of money without a video, without any image and with a pitch paragraph that pretty much meant "I made Elite. Give me money."

You're free to like David Braben more than Chris Roberts, but I ask that you keep in mind the latter paid a lot more respect to crowdfunding backers than the former. Which I think is why he has more supporters among us LT backers.

Yea well forums hey, good to have a thick skin when participating in them I rekon.

I think people have been a little too hard on DB and he has been brought up in an English culture where it is cool to be reserved and not too showy about what you do and this may seem closed and cold to those of other cultures and may to some extent explain his kickstarter disappointing many until maybe yesterdays video.

Lets not judge people too easily, life is complicated, cultures are complicated, everyone thinks, wants and feels differently.

Jason Schupfer wrote:Yea well forums hey, good to have a thick skin when participating in them I rekon.

I think people have been a little too hard on DB and he has been brought up in an English culture where it is cool to be reserved and not too showy about what you do and this may seem closed and cold to those of other cultures and may to some extent explain his kickstarter disappointing many until maybe yesterdays video.

Lets not judge people too easily, life is complicated, cultures are complicated, everyone thinks, wants and feels differently.

I cannot agree with you on the culture thing. It's common sense to show things to convince investors. Do you really think that David Braben would go to a publisher with "I made Elite. Give me money."?

...

Then again, that might explain why Elite 4 is still in the works.

No I don't think he would just say that if he went to a publisher, but I do understand that people feel his original pitch was a bit like that although he did not just say that on kickstarter at the start, there was quite a bit of talk about procedural generation early on.

I am just trying to say that for some it is more in their nature to show their stuff off better than others and perhaps that is a part of it.

The star citizen project is a fine example of maximizing showing your stuff off. Will i prefer star citizen or Elite 4 if it happens, or Limit theory, well I don't know yet. But I would like the chance to see all 3 make it.

I agree with you Jason, esp. on the hope, that all 3 games mentioned here (as well as a lot of non profit, fan made space sims, that are
in the pipeline elsewhere) will made it.
Between "Star Citizen" and "Elite Dangerous", may the gamers decide, what they like more, who takes the lead (oops forgot : the X-series
sequel is also in the pipeline, and Evrichon sequel, and ....)
WHEN LT makes it, what I firmly believe, it will be a kind of its own.

I also agree on the cultural stuff you said. Probably that's the main reason for my objections against Chris Roberts.
He hasn't been in game making for a damn long time, then he reapears with the claim of being/becomming the savior of PC-space-sim-gaming,
as if it is to die out as a "dangered specie" and has waited just for him to be saved.

That kind of "show off" belittles all the makers of space sims - corporate as well as indie - around the globe and the last 7 years. AND also belittles
the efforts of all the modders, who kept on with his last unfinished work.
I can't agree on his claim, that "that times technology" hinderd him in gaining what he wanted. Where has he been all the years ? It looks as if he
never took a look at what the fan community gained with what he left (and there is still lot of code in Freelancer untapped )

@ Atarun
I took the freedom to call him "brat" - perhaps in a too emotional moment - because I am one of those, who try to get Freelancer to what it can be.
David Braben doesn't have a "stellar record" in my mind. Just a much better than Chris Roberts, whos "career" I followed a bit after he dropped
Digital Anvil.

Although I'm not likely to back it again, I still wish Elite all the success in the world. IF a game is produced, and IF it is quality, I will still buy it and play the daylights out of it. But I feel, more than simple British reserve (after all, let's not forget, Chris Roberts is British too and he went all out!), there was a degree of arrogance and presumption in how the project was presented, at least that is how I interpreted it anyhow. I got the distinct impression that Braben was expecting all the old Elite fans to catapult him to immediate and overwhelming success much as Project Eternity's backers did. The problem was, and still is, that he didn't (and hasn't) put forward nearly the kind of effort into informing potential backers of what he's going to achieve with Elite: Dangerous that Obsidian did with Project Eternity. His ' updates', outside of yesterday's video, have been laughable and he's taken offense when backers (including myself) have pointed out that more is required to make a viable Kickstarter pitch.

Even if this all comes down to deliberate pacing and he has some kind of extravaganza planned for the final month of funding, it smacks of laziness at best and outright arrogance at worst. I've had my trust and faith in Braben seriously eroded by this and like any other consumer, I intend to make my feelings known with the most effective means of demonstration I have at my disposal. My wallet.

Matthew Cason wrote:Although I'm not likely to back it again, I still wish Elite all the success in the world. IF a game is produced, and IF it is quality, I will still buy it and play the daylights out of it. But I feel, more than simple British reserve (after all, let's not forget, Chris Roberts is British too and he went all out!), there was a degree of arrogance and presumption in how the project was presented, at least that is how I interpreted it anyhow. I got the distinct impression that Braben was expecting all the old Elite fans to catapult him to immediate and overwhelming success much as Project Eternity's backers did. The problem was, and still is, that he didn't (and hasn't) put forward nearly the kind of effort into informing potential backers of what he's going to achieve with Elite: Dangerous that Obsidian did with Project Eternity. His ' updates', outside of yesterday's video, have been laughable and he's taken offense when backers (including myself) have pointed out that more is required to make a viable Kickstarter pitch.

Even if this all comes down to deliberate pacing and he has some kind of extravaganza planned for the final month of funding, it smacks of laziness at best and outright arrogance at worst. I've had my trust and faith in Braben seriously eroded by this and like any other consumer, I intend to make my feelings known with the most effective means of demonstration I have at my disposal. My wallet.

fully agree with that you have said,

the other thing is, the presentation, so we know there is a engine there, and a working of a game, I suspected that from the beginning, BUT, it seems this latest video while pretty good, has been rushed to the masses, which begs the question, why did FD and DB rush to get this on KS so quickly to begin with?

sure the project has time, but if he had waited another month or two, THEN did a KS, had a good pitch video, then the MP video in the first update, then that generation video as a second, then on how MP and SP will work (something I still don't understand how there will be SP when FD are going to host their own servers and allow micro transactions, which in its very nature would suggest a closed server, DRM on the game, to project both online server and people's accounts

sure there is talk of SP, but it seems more and more that this will be a MP only game and balanced for MP

but due to the complete lack of information, apart from the FAQ, and DB own comments confirming that the online servers will allow micro transactions, how will the SP work? unless its a separate? and there will be two games, one for online, then another for offline? but then that would still allow for cheating, hacking, so why then say that FD will allow ingame money to be bought with real money, if they wanting to make a profit to keep the servers up, sure they might be third party sites, but if you allow offline play as well, then no one will use FD servers or buying of ingame money right? so they would have to protect their investment in some way, so this does sound more and more it will be a MP closed servers ggame

this isn't the kind of Elite I really want to play

this is one apsect that concerns me, on top of the lack of information about the game in general and how badly its been handled, I think DB is arrogant, and not treating backers with the same level as respect as he would will a publisher, so I would agree with Matthew Cason, he must have seen the PE champaign, and that backers fell over themselves to make the game possible, along with WL2, DFA and others, he must have said to himself, my name alone will make backers flock to me, I can ask for any amount and the game will be funded in a heart beat

but it hasn't, not only is the figure the highest asked for on a KS project, (remembering that the pound is stronger against the dollar) 1.2 million is a lot when in pounds what OE asked for is £650 roughly, so ED is pretty much twice that, and I think the high figure isn't doing the KS any favours either

sure CR wanted that on his own RSI site, so that is possible, but of course he did add the game to KS, so this I think really helped his cause

but back to ED, we all agree that its has been very bad ran, even with the new video posted, its not really done that much, but then again KS is always slow on weekends, so it might pick up a little on monday, but I think unless FD and DB are more forth coming with information, how will SP and MP work? and other factors, the new video will not silence those that are still criticising the project, so unless they do a far better job then they are now, the chances of ED been funded I still think is a hit and miss, what ED really needs are new backers, this is something they aren't really getting, until they do, there is only so many times that existing backers will keep uping their pledges,

I'm quite new to the Kickstarter scene, but I don't understand how the individuals or companies (Frontier Developments in this case) can be expected to have much to show BEFORE they start development. So I would have thought that most Kickstarter stuff is very raw/basic or just mock-ups.

I'm not sure if you can expect an existing company to drop/disregard their current commitments just to make a few videos for a Kickstarter campaign. The company still has employees that need to get paid? 30 people at £30K a year soon eats into the budget - remember, existing employees have contracts and rights and are already in place.

In any case, there seem to be a huge number of people backing ED and I don't see the amount of Kickstarter content to be any less than what Josh has given so far - I don't mean any offence or negativity by that, but this thread seems to be a contradiction.

you do have a point to a point, for project Eternity KS, there was no game, you only saw a screenshot on what it might look like, but the pitch video and the updates did a very clear job of describing what the game will be like

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obs ... t-eternity

it was a very well ran KS, OE also had a community manager, project leader, people to answer questions which helped a lot, plus they also answered questions by PM, so in this regard, with the regular updates, plus devs comments, helped to secure and go above the first goal, and got up to a very nice figure

same with SC, while the KS was done on their own site first, adding SC to KS I think really did help, but yes there was something to show for it

there Hero U did a pretty decent KS, and got its funding, while maybe a bit slow, the front page was done very nicely, and the pitch video was also done very nicely

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/187 ... redemption

now compare this to shaker

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loo ... nd-tom-hal

there are many things wrong with this, and it was quite clear they weren't going to make it, and so after a while the project was canned

take a look at the video, does it really tell you what type of game they are making? they mention making two games, but still very vague on the details, also the tiers are a complete mess, only four digital rewards, then the rest physical, so even if they did raise the money, I think half of what they asked for maybe more would have gone onto making the boxes, but the pitch video simply wasn't good enough, and these two have a strong history in the gaming world, but as the KS was a mess, and they thought their name alone would secure them the money, they were wrong,

the thing is, for elite dangerous, right off the bat, there was no pitch video, just a lot of vague information on what the game will be like, so then they added a video, then a FAQ, but then after a longish pause, the video on whole the random stuff will work, but unless you are really interested in that kind of thing, many would have switched off from it, since then, the only decent update is the MP video, but even then it still doesn't really explain many things, FD are just been very vague, and like I said before they are asking for a lot of money, which doesn't really help either

and this is really the issue, if FD wanted to secure this kind of cash, they should have done a far stronger pitch, video in from the start, more detailed information about the game and so on

they done none of that,

I think DB is basing the whole KS on his name alone, which is a bad move, so unless the KS is better thought out, a project will fail, sure they got their act together to release a MP video, but it then proves there is a game there, so why do the KS so early?

so the point is, if you are going to ask for a lot of money, you really have to back it up with something, and FD hasn't really done that very well

Funny thing is if they had asked for 700,000 many would by now have been saying how well they were doing.

I think most of there supporters including me are wishing they had asked for a more modest sum. The sum they have asked for is like climbing a mountain.

yes indeed, they would have got that by now, if they had asked for a smaller figure, but the current goal is simply too high and is a real negative against ED