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Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance

#91
It has great graphics for sure...

However, I have to ask, is there are over bearing Christian theme to this game? I watched some videos and heard the term "Good Christian", and the game is called "Kingdom Come: Deliverance" after all.

Myself, I won't play any game with real world religion that is more than just a very small point.

(BTW, I skipped most of this thread, so if it has already been brought up sorry)
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Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance

#93
Warhorse have been pretty clear in emphasizing that this game is meant to be more historical than a medieval fantasy game. It will cover a real area of eastern Europe, for example, with both historically accurate locations and major characters.

So it shouldn't be surprising if some of the forms of Christianity that existed in that place and time are also represented in Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

The question I have is the extent to which Warhorse will treat those forms respectfully, implementing some of both the positive and negative influences as appropriate to the core gameplay. What will disappoint me is if they go revisionist on it, using this relatively historical game as a soapbox for the developers to express modern-day antagonisms that some people feel about religion.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
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Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance

#94
Flatfingers wrote: The question I have is the extent to which Warhorse will treat those forms respectfully, implementing some of both the positive and negative influences as appropriate to the core gameplay. What will disappoint me is if they go revisionist on it, using this relatively historical game as a soapbox for the developers to express modern-day antagonisms that some people feel about religion.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
The role of religion has often been flanderized in this way, but it seems to happen more often in literature than in games it seems
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Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance

#95
Flatfingers wrote:Warhorse have been pretty clear in emphasizing that this game is meant to be more historical than a medieval fantasy game. It will cover a real area of eastern Europe, for example, with both historically accurate locations and major characters.

So it shouldn't be surprising if some of the forms of Christianity that existed in that place and time are also represented in Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

The question I have is the extent to which Warhorse will treat those forms respectfully, implementing some of both the positive and negative influences as appropriate to the core gameplay. What will disappoint me is if they go revisionist on it, using this relatively historical game as a soapbox for the developers to express modern-day antagonisms that some people feel about religion.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Meh, I don't care if other people are into religion, but I won't be playing a game where I'm expected to hear religious non-sense.

If it's historical, for the time period they are going for religion was a big deal in peoples lives.. so I will pass on this one.
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Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance

#96
Zanteogo wrote:
Flatfingers wrote:Warhorse have been pretty clear in emphasizing that this game is meant to be more historical than a medieval fantasy game. It will cover a real area of eastern Europe, for example, with both historically accurate locations and major characters.

So it shouldn't be surprising if some of the forms of Christianity that existed in that place and time are also represented in Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

The question I have is the extent to which Warhorse will treat those forms respectfully, implementing some of both the positive and negative influences as appropriate to the core gameplay. What will disappoint me is if they go revisionist on it, using this relatively historical game as a soapbox for the developers to express modern-day antagonisms that some people feel about religion.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Meh, I don't care if other people are into religion, but I won't be playing a game where I'm expected to hear religious non-sense.

If it's historical, for the time period they are going for religion was a big deal in peoples lives.. so I will pass on this one.
This struck me pretty deeply, so much so that I felt inclined to make an account to reply. You would really pass up an excellent game simply because they will mention religion? :crazy: With all due respect, that's plain silly, friend.
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Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance

#97
Emiliano wrote: This struck me pretty deeply, so much so that I felt inclined to make an account to reply. You would really pass up an excellent game simply because they will mention religion? :crazy: With all due respect, that's plain silly, friend.
Welcome to the forums, Emiliano. Hope you will stick around!

I'm otherwise inclined to agree
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Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance

#98
Emiliano wrote: This struck me pretty deeply, so much so that I felt inclined to make an account to reply. You would really pass up an excellent game simply because they will mention religion? :crazy: With all due respect, that's plain silly, friend.
If it's any part of the game other than a very small back ground part, yes, I won't play it. I wonder if it perhaps will play a large role, the title of the game certainly implies it. I will wait until others have played to fill me in.

I find religion mostly annoying, in RL if it makes someone happy then all the power to them. Not for me however. I won't play a game with strong aspects that I find annoying.
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Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance

#99
Flatfingers wrote:What will disappoint me is if they go revisionist on it, using this relatively historical game as a soapbox for the developers to express modern-day antagonisms that some people feel about religion.
Two fantasy games that are very strong about religion are Final fantasy Tactics and Vagrant Story, both by Yasumi Matsuno. He actually don't say "Christian Church" even when is quite obvious that that's what it is. I find that a particularly attractive treatment. Having a negative point about the church is nothing new and definitely not something modern. It has existed as long as the church, this church or any other organization of political power.

I don't expect to find that kind of discourse in this game though, but in particular I would feel pleasantly surprised if there were any. The only thing that could disappoint me is to find any kind of supernatural presence, religious or otherwise. The church as a political organization however is too interesting to miss.

Having said that, the two aforementioned games have a large quantity of supernormal elements. It just doesn't seem appropriate in this case.
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Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance

#100
Etsu wrote:
Flatfingers wrote:What will disappoint me is if they go revisionist on it, using this relatively historical game as a soapbox for the developers to express modern-day antagonisms that some people feel about religion.
Two fantasy games that are very strong about religion are Final fantasy Tactics and Vagrant Story, both by Yasumi Matsuno. He actually don't say "Christian Church" even when is quite obvious that that's what it is. I find that a particularly attractive treatment. Having a negative point about the church is nothing new and definitely not something modern. It has existed as long as the church, this church or any other organization of political power.

I don't expect to find that kind of discourse in this game though, but in particular I would feel pleasantly surprised if there were any. The only thing that could disappoint me is to find any kind of supernatural presence, religious or otherwise. The church as a political organization however is too interesting to miss.

Having said that, the two aforementioned games have a large quantity of supernormal elements. It just doesn't seem appropriate in this case.
>.> better not include the whole point of a church, just the church itself... seems a strange rule to me!
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Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance

#101
Scytale wrote:>.> better not include the whole point of a church, just the church itself... seems a strange rule to me!
Unless you believe in the supernatural, I didn't understand this comment.

The full point of the church to me is that it has a lot of political power. That's what matters in a game focused on political intrigue.
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"Playing" is not simply a pastime, it is the primordial basis of imagination and creation. - Hideo Kojima
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Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance

#102
Etsu wrote:
Scytale wrote:>.> better not include the whole point of a church, just the church itself... seems a strange rule to me!
Unless you believe in the supernatural, I didn't understand this comment.

The full point of the church to me is that it has a lot of political power. That's what matters in a game focused on political intrigue.
Well, regardless of whether or not you believe in the supernatural, it is cynical to say that the church exists only for political power. edit - Having read your original comment again, I see what you mean in a game about political intrigue - the church plays a similar role in CK and the EU games, for example - I was addressing what I (probably incorrectly) saw as a more general statement.
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Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance

#103
Etsu wrote:Having a negative point about the church is nothing new and definitely not something modern. It has existed as long as the church, this church or any other organization of political power.
That's not what I said, though.
Flatfingers wrote:The question I have is the extent to which Warhorse will treat those forms respectfully, implementing some of both the positive and negative influences as appropriate to the core gameplay.
There's a difference between fairly portraying uncontested facts about the past, good and bad, and deliberately emphasizing negative things about the past in order to score points from a modern-day perspective.

There were plenty of things about Christianity in that area at that time on which there's general agreement about their being problems -- the selling of indulgences, the secular power of the "princes of the Church," and the corrupting influences of those things were well-documented. I wouldn't be surprised or offended if those were part of Kingdom Come: Deliverance, so long as the equally well-documented positive parts of the Christian faith -- acts of charity and the preservation of knowledge, for example -- are also fairly represented.

What I hope not to see -- if religious elements appear at all in KC:D -- is the presence of religion in daily life portrayed as uniformly stupid and evil. That's a viewpoint that didn't exist then but which is popular today among some people. I think it would be inappropriate to jam 21st-century secular chauvinism into a game that the developers themselves said would try to be historical.

What I hope to see is what they promised in their Kickstarter pitch:
We want to bring you a strong story rooted in the height of the Middle Ages, brought to life in all its glory. So what is Kingdom Come: Deliverance? Think of it as Braveheart: The Game. Majestic castles, armored knights, large, open field battles, and political intrigue set in a vast, emergent world. We want to make the experience as authentic as possible – real-world locations, real castles that don’t look like something from Disneyland, period-accurate armors and costumes, combat and fencing systems designed in collaboration with the most knowledgeable, skillful swordsmen around, and a story based on actual, historic events.
Even having said that, Warhorse can and will make the kind of game they want. If they choose to exploit their power as creators to inject their personal beliefs into what they themselves said they wanted to be "authentic," they're free to do so. I'll be disappointed in them, and I'll enjoy their game less than I would have had they refrained from turning a game into a political soapbox, but it's their game.
Etsu wrote:The only thing that could disappoint me is to find any kind of supernatural presence, religious or otherwise.
You probably would not have enjoyed Darklands, then, which is a shame. It was a brilliantly designed game, set in a medieval northern Europe that resembled ours but in which the spiritual and religious beliefs of people in that time and place were implemented as though they were real. There were witches, but there was also intercession from the saints. (Incidentally, Darklands is now available again from GOG. ;))

Having said all this, I'm not about to blame you for knowing what you don't want from a game. I myself am no longer willing to play games that are console ports that don't implement quicksave. If that's not an impediment for anyone else, good for them; I'm just not going to do it any more because every time I've wavered I've regretted it. So while I personally might not avoid a game because it includes religion in a meaningful way, I'll defend your privilege to do so because I want that same privilege -- for other things -- for myself.
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Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance

#104
Scytale wrote:Having read your original comment again, I see what you mean in a game about political intrigue - the church plays a similar role in CK and the EU games, for example - I was addressing what I (probably incorrectly) saw as a more general statement.
That was what I was trying to say. You don't need to believe in Sauron to enjoy The Lord of the Ring, or in the devil to watch The Exorcist. :D It is a matter of internal logic.

Now that I think about it, even with movies like TLotR some people might not agree, fans of the books for example. It happens all the time. :lol:
Flatfingers wrote:What I hope not to see -- if religious elements appear at all in KC:D -- is the presence of religion in daily life portrayed as uniformly stupid and evil.
I think that would be very weird.
Flatfingers wrote:You probably would not have enjoyed Darklands, then, which is a shame. It was a brilliantly designed game, set in a medieval northern Europe that resembled ours but in which the spiritual and religious beliefs of people in that time and place were implemented as though they were real. There were witches, but there was also intercession from the saints. (Incidentally, Darklands is now available again from GOG. ;))
Well, it would depend on the game in general. I guess one factor should not influence my view of the game, even if that ended up being a very negative factor.
Flatfingers wrote:Having said all this, I'm not about to blame you for knowing what you don't want from a game. I myself am no longer willing to play games that are console ports that don't implement quicksave.
I'll copy you and say that maybe you would not enjoy Alien Isolation then, even when is not a port. But it doesn't have quicksaves. It would be a shame if it had those because the fact that saving is hard is a very important part of the gameplay, but I know some people who actually would love it. It's a very frustrating game, which in my opinion is precisely the point, but some people hate it because of that. I think it could be a matter of patience. I spend ninety percent of the time stuck in a locker or inside a ventilation duct, which is actually my idea of the perfect game. :mrgreen:
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"Playing" is not simply a pastime, it is the primordial basis of imagination and creation. - Hideo Kojima
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Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance

#105
Etsu wrote: That was what I was trying to say. You don't need to believe in Sauron to enjoy The Lord of the Ring, or in the devil to watch The Exorcist. :D It is a matter of internal logic.
I don't have any issues of playing games with made up religions.

Looks at the Dragon Age series. The main religion in the game is basically it's games version of the Catholic church. It's presented as both good and bad, with both good and bad people being part of it. It's funny because it's a game full of sprits and demons, however there is NO evidence that the god of it's church even exists. (when you ask the sprits and demons they say they have no idea) The game even allows you to reject the religion or embrace it.

I hope Dragon Age: Inquisition keeps this theme.

I just feel that real life religion has done more harm to the world than good. Unless I play a game and can reject the real religion, I won't play. It would be like playing a Nazi simulation game to me, but being unable to work against the Nazis. (even in secret)

I know some people disagree. I know some people will say "It's just roleplaying", some people may even jump in and go on how I am wrong to compare real religion to Nazi's. I don't care, this is how I feel. Now, to be fair, I don't think most modern religions are on the same level as Hitler's Nazis. However, if you go back to the middle ages, they where pretty much the same.
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