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Re: No Man's Sky

#1113
DigitalDuck wrote:It's Guilin. Great place, would love to go there sometime. Lots of interesting landscapes. Image
It's like God just gave up and let a noise based map generator do the work.
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<Cuisinart8> apparently without the demon driving him around Silver has the intelligence of a botched lobotomy patient ~ Mar 04 2020
console.log(`What's all ${this} ${Date.now()}`);
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Re: No Man's Sky

#1116
Flatfingers wrote:The UK's Advertising Standards Agency has ruled that the advertising materials used by Hello Games to promote interest in No Man's Sky were not deceptive.

While I appreciate that this may make some individuals grumpier, I think this ruling is good news for developers of games that rely heavily on randomized procedural content generation. To declare that particular PCG elements in ads constituted fraud could have had an enormous chilling effect on PCG-based games, to the detriment of many gamers.

on that i'd like to point out the difference in kind and differences in degree.

The linked article makes it sound like the judgement was that they cant be prosecuted for players not seeing the specific shade of creature not showing up.
which is perfectly fine and is good for the pcg community.

The thing that hello games obviously lied about and for what they should be prosecuted are all the differences in kind they promised/showed in their staged demos.
The big ass sandworms for example, or the "fleet battles" they promised and showed etc etc.

That was blatant lying and its far from being good for the community that they get away with it.
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Re: No Man's Sky

#1117
Cornflakes_91 wrote:The thing that hello games obviously lied about and for what they should be prosecuted are all the differences in kind they promised/showed in their staged demos.
The big ass sandworms for example, or the "fleet battles" they promised and showed etc etc.

That was blatant lying and its far from being good for the community that they get away with it.
I don't believe those bits were shown on the steam page, which was the only thing they looked at.
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WebGL Spaceships and Trails
<Cuisinart8> apparently without the demon driving him around Silver has the intelligence of a botched lobotomy patient ~ Mar 04 2020
console.log(`What's all ${this} ${Date.now()}`);
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Re: No Man's Sky

#1119
Silverware wrote:
Cornflakes_91 wrote:The thing that hello games obviously lied about and for what they should be prosecuted are all the differences in kind they promised/showed in their staged demos.
The big ass sandworms for example, or the "fleet battles" they promised and showed etc etc.

That was blatant lying and its far from being good for the community that they get away with it.
I don't believe those bits were shown on the steam page, which was the only thing they looked at.
They were, actually.
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Re: No Man's Sky

#1121
Cornflakes_91 wrote:The thing that hello games obviously lied about and for what they should be prosecuted are all the differences in kind they promised/showed in their staged demos.
The big ass sandworms for example, or the "fleet battles" they promised and showed etc etc.

That was blatant lying and its far from being good for the community that they get away with it.
The problem with this argument, which you're far from alone in making, is that it completely ignores any responsibility on the part of consumers to do some research before throwing money at a product.

That is not a defense of deliberate deception. It's a statement that responsibility for economic activity cannot all be loaded onto one side. Responsibility must be shared between producers and consumers or the whole system fails.

And where shared responsibility kicks in is not some easily-discernable bright line as you imply, either. Is there hard evidence that Hello Games's principals conspired to defraud consumers? No. There is not. There's a discrepancy between advertising materials and the early versions of a game. Some people are choosing to express an opinion that this must be deliberate fraud. Others have a different opinion.

I don't have an opinion on that. I have, and expressed, an opinion that if the ASA had declared certainty of fraud in the absence of hard evidence (and with no consideration of consumer responsibility), it would have sent a clear message to all developers of games with procedural content generation that they're asking for a lawsuit. RIP, PCG.

That would be bad.
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Re: No Man's Sky

#1122
I see your point, Flatfingers, and agree... but still think (personally) that the first rush of people buying it couldn't have known it was going to be terrible, and couldn't have known that little in the trailers was actually going to be in the game. Yes, they could have waited until it had been out for a while... but I don't think consumers should have to wait for it to be out for a while. A game should deliver what its advertising claims - or at least some greater portion of it. The whole penguin mindset (stand at the edge of the ice and hope you don't get pushed in, and follow whoever goes in first if they survive) is not something that should happen to the gaming industry. When that happens, the gaming industry will begin to die in earnest.
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Re: No Man's Sky

#1123
Flatfingers wrote: I don't have an opinion on that. I have, and expressed, an opinion that if the ASA had declared certainty of fraud in the absence of hard evidence (and with no consideration of consumer responsibility), it would have sent a clear message to all developers of games with procedural content generation that they're asking for a lawsuit. RIP, PCG.

That would be bad.
You mean hard evidence like the staged demo shot scenes being forgotten in the release game which contain kinds of content that arent in the PCG?

The PCG not generating the same things as in the demo shots is fine.
Hand building a demo without the PCG and claiming "this is all procedurally generated" is not fine.
the whole problem with nms is that what they had shown was not the PCG.
the whole case isnt about the pcg at all
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Re: No Man's Sky

#1124
Flatfingers wrote:And where shared responsibility kicks in is not some easily-discernable bright line as you imply, either. Is there hard evidence that Hello Games's principals conspired to defraud consumers? No. There is not. There's a discrepancy between advertising materials and the early versions of a game. Some people are choosing to express an opinion that this must be deliberate fraud. Others have a different opinion.
You're right. Obviously they just accidentally hand-crafted a few planets for the E3 demo and then forgot they did it when they showed the game.
Flatfingers wrote:I don't have an opinion on that. I have, and expressed, an opinion that if the ASA had declared certainty of fraud in the absence of hard evidence (and with no consideration of consumer responsibility), it would have sent a clear message to all developers of games with procedural content generation that they're asking for a lawsuit. RIP, PCG.

That would be bad.
No, it would send a clear message to all developers of games with PCG that you can't manually create content and say it's in your game when it isn't.

How many times do I have to say this? Let me put this in bigger letters for you:

The content they used to advertise the game was manually created, not procedurally generated.

The content they used to advertise the game cannot be procedurally generated by the game.

They claimed the content they used to advertise the game was procedurally generated.


They blatantly lied. This has nothing to do with procedural generation; "procedural generation" is being used as an excuse to get away with fraud. And it worked!

This is bad.
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Re: No Man's Sky

#1125
Setting aside the silly MY OPINION IS MORE TRUE WHEN I YELL IT thing, I'm posed with a dilemma.

On the one hand, someone who played the game (?) insists they have, or perhaps have read someone's claim of, evidence that Hello Games deliberately lied in their advertising materials for NMS.

On the other hand, an official advertising standards body, who apparently got to see the actual code, says nope, the promotional materials for NMS were within the bounds of responsible advertising for the actual product.

Both of these can't be true.

So whom should I believe?

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