JoshParnell wrote:Also, one more point, is that I have no problem with you guys voicing concerns about my approach. It used to cause me great angst pre-dark-days. At this point, I'm mentally secure enough to understand the legitimacy of the concerns from the outside without questioning the validity of what I'm doing inside

This. This is exactly what you need. I can tell you from prior experience, that not only will you finish the game now, but also that it will bring you great happiness.

I remember going back in old 2013/2014 when every month we would see Limit Theory grow. Every month we would see new features and the game go from a basic proof of concept to a full fledged game. I recall the point when Limit Theory crossed the line were it seemed like this was actually happening.

We are now approaching 2016. Two years after the original Limit Theory release date. It seems that Josh is stuck working on what amounts to "back ground engine stuff" and possibly cleaning up what mess was created when his mind broke.

I can't help but to feel some disappointment. Perhaps what Josh showed us and would tell us back in "old days" was a carefully constructed demonstration, and he just managed to hide some massive holes and flaws in the game structure. The game certainly appeared to be closing in on being ready, at least ready in the near foreseeable future. We saw the AI doing it's thing on it's own. We saw planets, stations, trading, fighting, missions. Everything seemed to function to a degree. It seemed it just needed some small improvements and clean up and to bring it all together. Perhaps not release ready, but certainly close to Beta ready.

So what happened?

As Kimmy reminded us, Josh seemed to be under the same impression. Back in olde 2012. There is certainly a reason why some of us are somewhat confused to what is almost 4 years afterwards.

Please understand, I am not trying to be the kid as Poet so "eloquently" put it, complaining "are we there yet?". Josh should take as long as he needs to. If this is what needs to be done, it needs to be done. I have no expectations left for this game. Perhaps years from now we will all be playing LT, perhaps not. Either way.

Zanteogo wrote:I remember going back in old 2013/2014 when every month we would see Limit Theory grow. Every month we would see new features and the game go from a basic proof of concept to a full fledged game. I recall the point when Limit Theory crossed the line were it seemed like this was actually happening.

We are now approaching 2016. Two years after the original Limit Theory release date. It seems that Josh is stuck working on what amounts to "back ground engine stuff" and possibly cleaning up what mess was created when his mind broke.

As skilled as Josh may be as a coder, even when he started LT, he's still inexperienced at actually delivering a product. The problem with being intelligent, young and still learning is that every week sees new ideas which seem like great ideas, and every week sees the ideas from the previous week seeming inadequate. Add in some inexperience, and you get the reason that software architects and project managers are roles that exist rather than just letting genius coders do what they want 100% of the time. Having someone who knows how to deliver a project is often more valuable than someone who knows how to code shit into rainbows.

Without smart, experienced management, you get a constant turnover of the new ideas, new code and new structure to replace what was there before and while that can generate an endless cycle of "improvements", it isn't necessarily progress towards completion.

Maybe Josh has adequately refined that skill set in himself and is actually is on track to getting things out the door now, or maybe he hasn't. The only thing that will confirm that is an actual delivered product in some form, and there's nothing for anyone but Josh to do about that besides wait.

Personally, I don't expect anything of LT anymore. That has long been a baseless expectation and managing your own hopes and disappointments is much easier when you expect nothing. That said, I do look forward to one day being pleasantly surprised, but I'm sure as hell no longer waiting for it.

The last two posts are spot on. There's a reason you have other roles. He might be a brilliant coder or software engineer, but design and production is a whole different thing.

Also I think there's too much a focus on perfection and getting insignificant things right. The last part applies generally to similar projects. There are some developers who never ship and go broke simply because they focused on making some part of the game which has zero impact on gameplay and is more eye candy.

I don't read it like that (from the last few posts), and not to be mean, but those kind of remarks just smack of self interest a bit too much perhaps?

You know the biggest thing that has ever happened in relation to LT, like ever?

Answer: Josh had a mental breakdown.

I think until you really understand what that is, what it entails, and have the empathy to understand all of that, any gripes about dissatisfaction about not getting LT when it was meant to be delivered sort of misses the point. It's not just about 'you'.

So sure it would be awesome if this project hit all it's milestones perfectly, but you know what, hardly any game projects do, let alone something as ambitious as LT with one (if brilliant) developer. It was always going to creep even under the most perfect of development situations. And the desire to fight against that for 'us' is part of what contributed to Josh's crisis, so cut a huge amount of slack for a guy that wanted to do this for you, at great personal cost, rather than add on the negative self interest.

Sorry if this comes over a little too harsh.

So, is that office of yours staying tidy, Josh, and have you any new display items to show us?

I could never abide a tidy desk when I was involved in a project. Did you tidy up before you snapped those pictures of your desk? *chuckle*

Just popped in to see what's up.

Great to see Josh has returned! I only arrived during what you might call the dark days, but LT has IMPRESSIVE stamped all over it regardless. Definitely one to keep my eye on. So I will be

The dev news sounds promising too.

Yeah, good stuff. Made my day.

Victor Tombs wrote:So, is that office of yours staying tidy, Josh, and have you any new display items to show us?

I could never abide a tidy desk when I was involved in a project. Did you tidy up before you snapped those pictures of your desk? *chuckle*

Oh good sir I keep a very tidy office (as you might imagine, my OCD extends beyond the realm of code) No major additions, although I've converted one whole wall into a massive, physical Trello board where I post loads and loads of sticky notes to organize my tasks and thoughts related to LT (because I had like 10 Trello boards before for LT ).

Maybe once LT launches we can have a party in my office (though I probably can only seat 4 or so)

JoshParnell wrote: Oh good sir I keep a very tidy office (as you might imagine, my OCD extends beyond the realm of code) No major additions, although I've converted one whole wall into a massive, physical Trello board where I post loads and loads of sticky notes to organize my tasks and thoughts related to LT (because I had like 10 Trello boards before for LT ).

Maybe once LT launches we can have a party in my office (though I probably can only seat 4 or so)

I can't say I'm surprised by your reply in respect of your OCD tendencies, noble one. I do hope you will continue to share your inspirational additions with us, Josh. That Trello board would have been very useful to me in days gone by. I remember using scores of the Post-it notes when they first became available but they were mainly attached to objects in a less organised way than you use them. So much so that my workspace tended to look like a yellow confetti bomb had gone off.

As many as four people at your launch party. I'm not sure I could handle that sort of pressure in such a confined area, my friend. It sounds very ambitious for a dedicated advocate of the art of simplicity such as yourself.

Looking forward to see what your revamped brain will come up with, cause the old one did some really cool shit

Agaton wrote:Looking forward to see what your revamped brain will come up with, cause the old one did some really cool shit

Been in lurk mode for ages, but still reading posts virtually daily. However this did make me laugh out load so I had to say ...

LOL

Mordakai wrote:
As skilled as Josh may be as a coder, even when he started LT, he's still inexperienced at actually delivering a product. The problem with being intelligent, young and still learning is that every week sees new ideas which seem like great ideas, and every week sees the ideas from the previous week seeming inadequate. Add in some inexperience, and you get the reason that software architects and project managers are roles that exist rather than just letting genius coders do what they want 100% of the time. Having someone who knows how to deliver a project is often more valuable than someone who knows how to code shit into rainbows.

Without smart, experienced management, you get a constant turnover of the new ideas, new code and new structure to replace what was there before and while that can generate an endless cycle of "improvements", it isn't necessarily progress towards completion.

Maybe Josh has adequately refined that skill set in himself and is actually is on track to getting things out the door now, or maybe he hasn't. The only thing that will confirm that is an actual delivered product in some form, and there's nothing for anyone but Josh to do about that besides wait.

Personally, I don't expect anything of LT anymore. That has long been a baseless expectation and managing your own hopes and disappointments is much easier when you expect nothing. That said, I do look forward to one day being pleasantly surprised, but I'm sure as hell no longer waiting for it.

Similarly along these lines is another game I've been following for a few years now: Starbound. They also had a team of great coders, but perhaps not so great at being efficient project managers to reign in scope for what would be considered a 1.0 release and what to save for future DLC or just game updates - you can't realistically get everything and the kitchen sink in by 1.0. Not even AAA titles achieve this. SB's scope has been all over the place, but is slowly creeping towards 1.0.

Difference there, though, is that we've been able to play-test the game all this time with an occasional 'stable' release as well as 'nightlies' that may work and may not. We have something to hang our hats on while the devs figure out how to cross that finish line.

Over in the Star Citizen universe (which is also taking a millennium to reach 1.0), folks are given 'chunks' of the game to actual satiate their need for play. (though small consolation for the SC crowd)

In a similar boat to LT is Wollay developer of CubeWorld. Basically a one man team and boy is it taking forever for release. We did get the alpha to play with all this time though.

The big difference here, too, is that LT has one developer, so you can basically stretch development out 10 or 20 times what a regular group would deliver.

So, what's my point here? Who knows. I do believe that a game that's a one man show is not something you want to hold your breath for. It often becomes that one man's life's work to get exactly perfect before he lets it out the door. If a group of 5-10 take 3-5 years to get a game out.. well, you do the math.

NonBritGit wrote:

Mordakai wrote:
As skilled as Josh may be as a coder, even when he started LT, he's still inexperienced at actually delivering a product. The problem with being intelligent, young and still learning is that every week sees new ideas which seem like great ideas, and every week sees the ideas from the previous week seeming inadequate. Add in some inexperience, and you get the reason that software architects and project managers are roles that exist rather than just letting genius coders do what they want 100% of the time. Having someone who knows how to deliver a project is often more valuable than someone who knows how to code shit into rainbows.

Without smart, experienced management, you get a constant turnover of the new ideas, new code and new structure to replace what was there before and while that can generate an endless cycle of "improvements", it isn't necessarily progress towards completion.

Maybe Josh has adequately refined that skill set in himself and is actually is on track to getting things out the door now, or maybe he hasn't. The only thing that will confirm that is an actual delivered product in some form, and there's nothing for anyone but Josh to do about that besides wait.

Personally, I don't expect anything of LT anymore. That has long been a baseless expectation and managing your own hopes and disappointments is much easier when you expect nothing. That said, I do look forward to one day being pleasantly surprised, but I'm sure as hell no longer waiting for it.

Similarly along these lines is another game I've been following for a few years now: Starbound. They also had a team of great coders, but perhaps not so great at being efficient project managers to reign in scope for what would be considered a 1.0 release and what to save for future DLC or just game updates - you can't realistically get everything and the kitchen sink in by 1.0. Not even AAA titles achieve this. SB's scope has been all over the place, but is slowly creeping towards 1.0.

Difference there, though, is that we've been able to play-test the game all this time with an occasional 'stable' release as well as 'nightlies' that may work and may not. We have something to hang our hats on while the devs figure out how to cross that finish line.

Over in the Star Citizen universe (which is also taking a millennium to reach 1.0), folks are given 'chunks' of the game to actual satiate their need for play. (though small consolation for the SC crowd)

In a similar boat to LT is Wollay developer of CubeWorld. Basically a one man team and boy is it taking forever for release. We did get the alpha to play with all this time though.

The big difference here, too, is that LT has one developer, so you can basically stretch development out 10 or 20 times what a regular group would deliver.

So, what's my point here? Who knows. I do believe that a game that's a one man show is not something you want to hold your breath for. It often becomes that one man's life's work to get exactly perfect before he lets it out the door. If a group of 5-10 take 3-5 years to get a game out.. well, you do the math.

Oh Starbound... My dream that was only a dream. They never did make it sufficiently science-y or sci-fi for me... It always just felt like Terraria with a different atmosphere.

In fact, I proposed a fairly complex shield model which included variable power (Wires, generators and such) and it was rejected on the pretense of variable power not being a planned feature, which was quite saddening.

The main thing that sticks out to me, is the fact that Josh has been HONEST throughout this whole thing. Yes, it has gone a little longer than expected and that is unfortunate, but shit happens. If anyone of you complainers can do better, lets see how good a job YOU can do.

In my mind, his honesty is worth a little wait time. At least he isn't trying to hide the condition of his game, make people sign NDA's, or trying to make a console game behind our backs that he will fail to get approved, and then try to put lipstick on his console pig to try to sell us a "PC" game.

If you are so upset over the current situation, go play or do something else. I'm sure the X stillbirth forum is a better hang out for you.

NonBritGit wrote:In a similar boat to LT is Wollay developer of CubeWorld. Basically a one man team and boy is it taking forever for release. We did get the alpha to play with all this time though.

The big difference here, too, is that LT has one developer, so you can basically stretch development out 10 or 20 times what a regular group would deliver.

So, what's my point here? Who knows. I do believe that a game that's a one man show is not something you want to hold your breath for. It often becomes that one man's life's work to get exactly perfect before he lets it out the door. If a group of 5-10 take 3-5 years to get a game out.. well, you do the math.

Indeed, but I mean, this was what LT was sold as from the very beginning...if you go back and read the KS, those who made LT come alive did it with full knowledge that it was a "one guy's crazy dream" kind of thing. The budget (which was disclosed) never included hiring a team (nor could I do that, even with the excess that we got), it included supporting myself + primarily getting audio professionals to do the sound and music work on contract. And that's exactly where the money has been going.

So, I guess my point is, I understand the frustrations with what are (apparently) the inescapable problems of a 1-man team...but at the same time, that's what LT has been from the very beginning, and everyone who helped make it a reality knew that. There wasn't any other way it could have happened -- the KS didn't come from a small indie studio's game proposal, it came from a graphics programmer who had a dream-turned-hobby project, a burning passion to see a particular kind of game made, and no other way to pursue it full-time than to go appeal to others who also wanted to see that game made.

TL;DR - It is what it is, LT has always been a one-man-team, so discussing the pitfalls of it aren't very useful. Even with overfunding we absolutely don't have the means to form a real 'team.' We're lucky to have found music and audio professionals to work with for the price we did. Discussing me and my problems as a developer, however, is totally fair game (although a rather well-beaten horse IMO)