Return to “Announcements”

Post

Re: Development Update #15: March 2014

#33
Brilliant stuff Josh, the economy already looks authentic, if a little quick!

Some constructive criticism, slow down a bit bro! Obviously you are manipulating this UI for hours everyday and are extremely comfortable with wizzing around the various screens and views but give us a chance to soak it up. A little more time on each new revelation would help.
Perhaps I'm getting old but I need a little space for cogitating.
Post

Re: Development Update #15: March 2014

#34
I'm guessing the dislikes is because we would have had much more likes if it wasn't for the torrent. While you can ask for likes, not everyone who downloaded the torrent even viewed it on YT. The ratio is off. :|
Image
Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
Post

Re: Development Update #15: March 2014

#36
Impressive Update! :clap:

Finally LT becomes to live.


For the next update i'd like to see a rly... rly big battleship, and what we can do with it. :) Show a little handling, inventory and weapon menu, maybe a good fight with some rats, or enemy battleship.... or station attack^^ (...destroying planets ^^^^ )

Show me some outstanding fireworks, i wanna hear big gunfire, detonations... hm, too much beer tonight... anyway.... :)
Post

Re: Development Update #15: March 2014

#37
Katorone wrote:
Charley_Deallus wrote: I was very excited.
But why the marshmallow?
That's not supposed to be marshmellow. I think he was trying to convey that he was so excited, he was a bit premature and overstimulated. :lol:
Image
Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
Post

Re: Development Update #15: March 2014

#38
And Josh spake, saying, Let there be economic activity. And there were asks and bids generated dynamically, and it was good.

I see now Josh's true goal: he is trying to ruin all other games for us forever.

He may succeed.

This was indeed the best update so far, because it's the first glimpse of a universe that's really doing something. NPCs can now perform value exchanges. That generates emergent behaviors with which players can interact. Without that activity, it's the dead corpse of a universe. With it, when the player pushes on some piece of the universe, the universe can push back.

That action/consequence/re-action loop is gameplay. It's what distinguishes a game from a book or movie or painting. And now Limit Theory can have it. The moment the player can interact with this new economy, it becomes a real game.

Yes. That is cool. It's the most critical moment that the development of this game has seen so far, and that is completely worth all the enthusiasm that Josh has expressed for it.

I would suggest that economic activity is just one form of what NPCs can do. NPC personality and goals and delegation and faction are, IMO, together the most important thing for making the LT universe come alive. Economic activity is just the expression of NPCs interested in commercial action, which is just one form of expression. It seems reasonable to expect that there will be other expressions of other interests such as exploration and research (for knowledge) and combat (for power).

That said, economic action is an important form because it helps supply the other gameplay activities. (But I want the other gameplay activities, combat and commerce and research and exploration, to support economic activity, and for them to support each other.)

I am really, really happy with this update. I expect there's some more macro work to do, and I have a hunch that we're about to see combat start to get some love. But what a phenomenal leap forward this time! Now is when we can start to see what all those subsystems that Josh has been producing can do when they're given the ability to affect the universe.

And it gets even better from here. :)

All this said, I do have some thoughts on Update #15.

1. VARYING NPC ACTIVITY LEVEL

I want to see lots of systems with even more NPCs than we saw here. Activity is beautiful.

2. OMNISCIENT NODE VIEW

It's worth noting that we're getting to see the node view of a system. I love this view. I will want to spend all my time in this view. That said... is this just for the demo, or will players (and NPCs) have this kind of perfect knowledge of all objects -- including ships -- in a star system? Are we omniscient on a per-system basis? Alternately, if knowledge of some objects will be hidden, what should the rules for that be? What should not be displayed by default in the system node view, and why?

3. ASCENDING LINES FROM SHIPS IN NODE VIEW

What are the dim lines ascending from ships in the node view? If color indicates what kind of thing an object is, are the ascending lines mostly for making the node view more interesting? Or is there a practical function that I'm just not understanding from watching a video?

4. MARKET CHART UI TIME SCALE

On the various market activity screens, will we be able to change the period of the time axis through some zoom-in/zoom-out affordance?

5. PERSONALITY-BASED DECISION-MAKING QUALITY
Telc wrote:please make sure that you don't make too many "rational" assumptions (e.g. perfect forecasting, optimal bell-curve). In real life we DO see spikes/shocks crisis etc. even if the "leading" economic models (DSGE stuff) or Nobel Price winners (Fama) say that crashs/bubbles don't exist...

So what I'm saying: it would be awesome to see how all this interacts with "personality" of the NPCs! :!: As a player I will go for trading because I like trading! (and it also gives me money). But if I had enough of trading I go out and explore the world, maybe building a structure here, maybe settling down in one system, building up my empire in the way I like. I would not like to fly around being the only real "individual" driven by intrinsic motivations while everyone else is just going to maximize wealth.. (that would feel too generic imo)
I think I agree. :)

Seriously; it's important that not all NPCs want to do commerce, and that not all NPCs who do commerce do it perfectly or even well. Perfection is boring. (Yes, even in a universe of incomplete information that causes lack of perfect knowledge, NPCs should not all have perfect decision-making processes.)

6. FREEDOM VERSUS CONTROL

Listening to the video, I found myself wondering: who really gets to choose what NPCs are doing?

Early in the video, we heard about NPCs that "they're all doing their own thing" (1:15) and "NPCs are allowed to choose what they want to do" (8:40). But later, we heard "these people who are actually working right now ... they are not the ones making the decisions" (13:09) and "every person that you see trading, and every person that you see mining, has actually been ordered to do that by a superior officer" (14:41).

Is there a conflict here? On the one hand, NPCs are said to be free to choose; on the other hand, they're being told what to do by The Man. So which is it? Or is it both? (I can imagine how it might be both, but I'd rather not assume things.)

7. NPC CHATTER

I am hoping (as I mentioned in the most recent Fligher Podcast) that there'll be some "chatter" in the universe. I wouldn't mind being able to turn it off to enjoy the peace and quiet. But I also hope that it will be possible to hear occasional bursts of communication from an NPC that gives some insight into what they're doing and why they're doing it. Most of the time it should be possible to figure that out from their observed actions. But a simple broadcast message that explains what they're doing would, I think, significantly increase the feeling of being in a living universe where people do things for reasons. It really doesn't have to be frequent at all -- just a little bit of chatter would make a big difference in adding to the feeling of life and purpose. (I'm not sure what form that chatter might/should take, though.)
Post

Re: Development Update #15: March 2014

#40
In regards to no. 6: he mentioned in the video that the commanders were, at the moment, not capable of both thinking and doing things at the same time.
I guess that would apply to the miners/traders as well, which is (at least partially) why we saw this mindless behavior from them.
A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week.

In magenta we trust
Post

Re: Development Update #15: March 2014

#41
Cornflakes_91 wrote:to 7: i think they have both, but the commanded NPC's are being paid by their superior officers for their work, so they have an incentive to do what they are being ordered
I think the captains (or overlords) are putting a request for employees on the market and the workers take it. So it should be cheaper to work for a captain than mining and selling ore themselves. maybe they get their equipment from the captains.
Post

Re: Development Update #15: March 2014

#42
Flatfingers wrote:2. OMNISCIENT NODE VIEW

It's worth noting that we're getting to see the node view of a system. I love this view. I will want to spend all my time in this view. That said... is this just for the demo, or will players (and NPC) have this kind of perfect knowledge of all objects -- including ships -- in a star system? Are we omniscient on a per-system basis? Alternately, if knowledge of some objects will be hidden, what should the rules for that be? What should not be displayed by default in the system node view, and why?
Omniscience pretty much kills the exploration aspect so knowledge at this level of (realtime) completeness should have a cost.

What exactly the player knows and to what degree should be a matter of effort. Cost is one of those fake balancing mechanisms that people suggest when they intend to make it an irrelevant restriction. =P
X3 has a decent (if bare bones) system there. You deploy satellites at the points you care about and you get a realtime feed of what's happening while the sat is alive.
Maybe these sats require a comm center somewhere in the system, maybe they have a lifetime. Just tossing a few out of your cargo bay seems a bit uninvolved.
Also, if these are physical objects, an enemy can do something about your altogether too good knowledge about his system or ship movements. =P
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
Post

Re: Development Update #15: March 2014

#43
Well, it was worth the wait. Congrats, Josh, on successfully one-upping yourself for the 14th time in a row. Whilst I am - as always - green with envy at the technical prowess on show (across an increasingly astonishing number of disciplines), I am also extremely proud of you dude. You're really doing it, which is pretty rare. It's inspiring. Keep it up!

On practical matters, after watching the video the potential of a dynamic economy is pretty mind blowing. However the first thing that came to my mind is: there just has to be some form of false ID system in LT.

Imagine: you discover a rich new source of an ore and mine the hell out of it. You then take it back your load to a refining station and process it into a material that is heavily used in a nearby system. However you don't really fancy just selling it on the market like all the other chumps. So, leaving your cargo in storage, you return to your hidden base and swap into a heavily fighter/bomber registered to your false ID. You then take a back-door route into the system and make a bombing run on the local refining facilities, destroying them completely. After a hell-for-leather dash for the exit, and making sure you lost anyone chasing you, you can return to your cargo and sell it just as the market price has gone through the roof.

Who doesn't want to do that?! :twisted:

Of course there are different variations on this scenario. Why even bother with the secret base? That's so 1960s. Instead just hire some NPCs to do it for you on the black market (through your false ID, of course). Then you can just watch from a safe distance as it all goes down, swooping in just when the market reaches its supply-starved peak.

A false ID system also enables other sorts of gameplay. The scenario I outlined above is mostly about profits - let's call it the Ghekko option. However there's little to stop similar scenarios for politics (Sidious option) or one-man crime fighter (Batman option). The true identity behind the false one would, as the false ID becomes more notorious, start to become a valuable bit of information...

Yes, I can see why Josh is excited.
Post

Re: Development Update #15: March 2014

#44
Flatfingers wrote:And Josh spake, saying, Let there be economic activity. And there were asks and bids generated dynamically, and it was good.
[snip]
2. OMNISCIENT NODE VIEW

It's worth noting that we're getting to see the node view of a system. I love this view. I will want to spend all my time in this view. That said... is this just for the demo, or will players (and NPCs) have this kind of perfect knowledge of all objects -- including ships -- in a star system? Are we omniscient on a per-system basis? Alternately, if knowledge of some objects will be hidden, what should the rules for that be? What should not be displayed by default in the system node view, and why?
I assume this is the new map UI. Hoping that a fog of war system is in place:
-Depending on the reliability of the communication system, mobile things (ships etc.) are only visible if the player's faction has some presence in the sector.
-More permanent features, like stations, asteroids, trade lanes, etc. should be made visible on first encounter (coming into sensor range) and remain in the map when out of range. Purchasing a map of varying completeness could be possible.
-Larger celestial bodies should be discovered with the sector itself.
Flatfingers wrote:3. ASCENDING LINES FROM SHIPS IN NODE VIEW
What are the dim lines ascending from ships in the node view? If color indicates what kind of thing an object is, are the ascending lines mostly for making the node view more interesting? Or is there a practical function that I'm just not understanding from watching a video?
I'd say they're indicating vertical distance from a horizontal plane (you can see that some of the lines are descending from the ships, which are above the plane). This also helps for perception of depth. For a clear illustration consider the vertical movement systems in games like Homeworld, Star Wolves, or Flotilla.
Flatfingers wrote:5. PERSONALITY-BASED DECISION-MAKING QUALITY

Seriously; it's important that not all NPCs want to do commerce, and that not all NPCs who do commerce do it perfectly or even well. Perfection is boring. (Yes, even in a universe of incomplete information that causes lack of perfect knowledge, NPCs should not all have perfect decision-making processes.)
Seconded. The only thing that this month's progress has left me sceptical about(and I hope I'm mistaken, and have just missed a detail) is how, er, capitalistic the NPC motivation seems to be. I want some of the factions to have motivations beyond "profit", even if they're irrational. In this case they'll still use their assets and infrastructure to generate profit, sure, but only as a means to make pursuit of their larger goal sustainable.
Flatfingers wrote:7. NPC CHATTER

I am hoping (as I mentioned in the most recent Fligher Podcast) that there'll be some "chatter" in the universe. I wouldn't mind being able to turn it off to enjoy the peace and quiet. But I also hope that it will be possible to hear occasional bursts of communication from an NPC that gives some insight into what they're doing and why they're doing it. Most of the time it should be possible to figure that out from their observed actions. But a simple broadcast message that explains what they're doing would, I think, significantly increase the feeling of being in a living universe where people do things for reasons. It really doesn't have to be frequent at all -- just a little bit of chatter would make a big difference in adding to the feeling of life and purpose. (I'm not sure what form that chatter might/should take, though.)
Chatter is one of the most immersive features of space games for me. It was my second-favourite feature of Homeworld, and it really helped with my enjoyment of Freelancer - I think it got the balance right. It's the key reason I'm hoping we get some kind of voicework implemented.
Post

Re: Development Update #15: March 2014

#45
Flatfingers wrote: [...]
I see now Josh's true goal: he is trying to ruin all other games for us forever.

He may succeed.
[...]
I realize you speak facetiously here, and I won't deny that I fully expect LT and (omigoshicantbreathemydreamsarecomingtrue) LT2 to seriously dominate my gaming life.. :squirrel: :squirrel:

However, [earnest determination face] I refuse to believe that I will ever be unfaithful to Dwarf Fortress. [/earnest determination face]


But apart from that exclusion: any other game be darned, gimme Limit Theory!
"omg such tech many efficiency WOW" ~ Josh Parnell

Online Now

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

cron