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Re: Development Update #13: January 2014

#46
From devlog:

"k, I want to mention one more counterintuitive thing that I keep reading People keep mentioning wanting faster scanners. But...what? The scanner is extremely fast, it gives you a sample every frame"

That's my point with the circular buffer being counter-intuitive.

A lot of people think that the scanner is already working as a radar and that the sample displayed is only relevant for that angular sector! (that you need to wait for a full circle before you get a new data-point relevant to that direction)
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Re: Development Update #13: January 2014

#47
Orillian wrote:Also different energy types could have scanner signatures, aka a type of sine wave oscillation to the energy patterns, these patterns could be used to identify different elements in the game, even from outside visual range.
Josh is already planning to do this.
Orillian wrote:Then when I saw the worldview overlay, that made me think of the scanner as well. What if the scanner systems on your craft also allowed you to detect hard points and other elements of the ships you scanned (again with varying degree's of accuracy and resolution, based on the quality/type of scanner.), and would then project those hard points onto the element in question. What if that same node tech was used to display real time information about the composition of asteroids that the scanner is scanning, or the energy levels of a station or vessel you are actively scanning. High quality scanners might even be able to detect engines powering up or weapon types based on their energy signatures.

What if different scanners had differing functional capabilities, one might allow for better long range detection of energy signals, while another might be better able to detect the individual hard points on a ship. Potentially you could use different scanners in tandem to get better results.

With this type of nodal interface, there is a limitless amount of options you could implement into the scanners. So much variety and variability could be achieved, making scanners a very unique way to make the way the systems on a particular ship "see" the galaxy around them, different. Small fighter type craft might have to rely on short range scanners that are better equipped for penetrating the hulls of ships to detect hard points and cargo, while larger ships might be able to maintain a full array of scanners.
Yeah these would all be pretty sweet.
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Re: Development Update #13: January 2014

#48
Hrmmm... Seems like a lot of people are having trouble with breaking the polar graph from a radar mechanic.

Here's an idea to try for you Josh since it seems like it would be fairly easy to at least test with your capabilities...

Since most graphs that chart time will have the graph scroll once your time hits one side of the graph, I wonder how the same scanner would look like if instead of the arm sweeping around the circle, if the circle rotated instead and the arm was static? I know that would definitely break the polar graph and angular direction intuition that so many are having trouble with.

Just my $0.02
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Development Update #13: January 2014

#49
DWMagus wrote:Since most graphs that chart time will have the graph scroll once your time hits one side of the graph, I wonder how the same scanner would look like if instead of the arm sweeping around the circle, if the circle rotated instead and the arm was static? I know that would definitely break the polar graph and angular direction intuition that so many are having trouble with.

Just my $0.02
It's already been suggested and Josh said he'd try it. It'd definitely make it more intuitive.
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Re: Development Update #13: January 2014

#50
ThymineC wrote:
DWMagus wrote:Since most graphs that chart time will have the graph scroll once your time hits one side of the graph, I wonder how the same scanner would look like if instead of the arm sweeping around the circle, if the circle rotated instead and the arm was static? I know that would definitely break the polar graph and angular direction intuition that so many are having trouble with.

Just my $0.02
It's already been suggested and Josh said he'd try it. It'd definitely make it more intuitive.
I could've sworn I caught up on the posts, can you point me to where this was referenced? Did I miss a thread?
Image
Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Development Update #13: January 2014

#51
DWMagus wrote:
ThymineC wrote:
DWMagus wrote:Since most graphs that chart time will have the graph scroll once your time hits one side of the graph, I wonder how the same scanner would look like if instead of the arm sweeping around the circle, if the circle rotated instead and the arm was static? I know that would definitely break the polar graph and angular direction intuition that so many are having trouble with.

Just my $0.02
It's already been suggested and Josh said he'd try it. It'd definitely make it more intuitive.
I could've sworn I caught up on the posts, can you point me to where this was referenced? Did I miss a thread?
Sugggestion.
Josh saying he'd try it.
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Re: Development Update #13: January 2014

#52
Something I always find interesting is how clear Josh is on the fact that any feature he shows us on one of his dev videos are ALWAYS subject to refinement/alteration (or even outright scrapping). Concerning the scanner: it's crystal clear to me that it will change in appearance before getting the final stamp of his approval, but even so, even if he left it as is, IMO it's already a MUCH more functional/interesting/useful/fun scanner than I can think of from any other space sim-y game (granted, I'm most recently tainted, er, exposed to X Rebirth's supposed Long Range Scanner, so perhaps my judgment is skewed...).

Anyway, loved the video, loved the HUD. I'm super excited about the onscreen "widget's" in terms of individual customization, and it goes without saying (but I'm saying it anyway) that the whole node thing is probably one of the most interesting game world developments I can point to in recent years. :clap:

Oh, almost forgot: the metal looked great, too! :thumbup:
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Re: Development Update #13: January 2014

#53
Has anyone mentioned the idea of nebula's (Wrath of Kahn) or other game play systems (flares, chaff, radioactive clouds) for causing interference with the scanners functions or maybe limiting the distance the scanner can operate on?

As pretty much everyone has said, you have to use the system overlay as a game play feature it just looks to damn cool to not use, I like the suggested idea of this being a result of scanning ships, meaning you can target specific elements (engines, scanners,etc.) and see the contents of there inventory (piracy).
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Re: Development Update #13: January 2014

#54
Absolutely fantastic! Everything could stay just how it is now and it'd still be great to play with :D one thing I'm surprised nobody has mentioned: when you went into glass/orange mode, whenever you moved around whatever was displayed on the HUD got obscured by every bit of dust/nebula as if it was behind them. Does this not bug anyone else? Was it intentional? It. Looked like the HUD was disappearing behind clouds.
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Re: Development Update #13: January 2014

#55
Gryphon0468 wrote:Absolutely fantastic! Everything could stay just how it is now and it'd still be great to play with :D one thing I'm surprised nobody has mentioned: when you went into glass/orange mode, whenever you moved around whatever was displayed on the HUD got obscured by every bit of dust/nebula as if it was behind them. Does this not bug anyone else? Was it intentional? It. Looked like the HUD was disappearing behind clouds.
It has been mentioned on YT and I am aware of it - in some sense it is intentional, the idea is to look like "glass," so the HUD is only illuminated by light coming from behind it. But I will try to find a solution so that you can see glasshud even in dark sectors :)
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
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Re: Development Update #13: January 2014

#56
JoshParnell wrote:
Gryphon0468 wrote:Absolutely fantastic! Everything could stay just how it is now and it'd still be great to play with :D one thing I'm surprised nobody has mentioned: when you went into glass/orange mode, whenever you moved around whatever was displayed on the HUD got obscured by every bit of dust/nebula as if it was behind them. Does this not bug anyone else? Was it intentional? It. Looked like the HUD was disappearing behind clouds.
It has been mentioned on YT and I am aware of it - in some sense it is intentional, the idea is to look like "glass," so the HUD is only illuminated by light coming from behind it. But I will try to find a solution so that you can see glasshud even in dark sectors :)
I personally don't see the point of the glass HUD in dark areas. In such situations you would want a full bright HUD in my opinion.

Maybe an option is to have the effect where light coming from a wider area can illuminate the glass HUD? That perhaps could give it a bit of extra depth?
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Re: Development Update #13: January 2014

#57
The polar graph certainly looks very cool. Even though it took me maybe half the duration of video to get accustomed to the output in the circle not being a representation of a scanning angle, but just a graph over time.
However, I can see myself preferring a plain "current moment in time" amplitude bar (maybe with 4 seconds min/max range indicators) for scanning, at least after the novelty of that polar graph has worn off. [I see no particular use for the results from 4 seconds ago yet.]

--

As for the in-world overlay, that's another very neat thing you added! I know I love and prefer to have a "filtered" reduced-information overlay projected on the world as a whole, and some very detailed information about some individual things in this world in a fixed HUD element.

--

The node dragging you showed in the video also has more than just the potential for making really nice screenshots and videos. Together with trivial transparent "Ghost"-type representation of objects (or their nodes), you'd have a positional command interface and positional editor of sorts. Probably worth keeping around, knowing how many space games eventually want stations and the like. [The feature is even probably worth keeping around just for the fun of tossing exploding spaceships around, in fact...]

If you decide to slightly flesh out this feature, you might consider adding some additional things like the ability to to match relative x/y/z corrdinates plus rotation between *either* two nodes *or* two parent objects you're working with (quick modal toggle preferred), plus maybe some axis and rotation overlays to better visually show how things are oriented in space.


Anyhow, amazing work yet again, Josh!
AbhChallenger wrote:I personally don't see the point of the glass HUD in dark areas. In such situations you would want a full bright HUD in my opinion.
Many kinds of [brightness, lightness, color, simultaneous, successive, ...] contrasts would probably work. The glass effect could probably still dampen and modify the contrast.
Last edited by Rad on Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Development Update #13: January 2014

#58
Once again, Josh rocks.
Like other, I'm a bit confused by the circular scanner which feel (IMO) really counter intuitive but dude... this is soooooooooo shiny !
It's strange, make a cartesian plot of a function over time and no one thinks anything of it. But a polar plot? Suddenly there is an expectation of something more than just value over time :think: A bit odd, but maybe because polar time graphs are not so common.
Well.. in fact, there is nothing odd : time is linear whereas our spatial perception is circular (or at least angular). :geek:
Set value around the cursor and OBVIOUSLY people try to make a spatial meaning of it ... it's like... it's a trap ! Moreover, the scanner is used to search the location of something... so spatial information are the first information our brain is looking for (I guess).
Are you trying to scan my signature ?
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Re: Development Update #13: January 2014

#59
Josh Parnell wrote:Quite a bit of debate already over how the scanner should be modified / why it doesn't make sense, etc. I'm a bit surprised at how many people seem to feel that the lack of spatial correlation with the polar graph is an issue. ... it's the perfect visualization of a ring buffer IMO, which is exactly what the scanner's internal buffer is.
...
The scanner is extremely fast, it gives you a sample every frame. I guess you mean ... if I made the size of the buffer smaller, then you would see the complete history buffer wiped out "faster" ... but the only thing that would do is give you a smaller historical snapshot!
My guess is that people (including me) are jumping ahead to game-mechanical utility.

It hasn't been said out loud that I know of, but maybe what people are thinking is that the historical signals are just sort of taking up space. The requests for a "faster" scanner are perceived as a way to decrease the amount of time that historical data values are displayed.

I don't think it would actually do that, though, since -- as pointed out -- every new data point is the most up-to-date information. Decreasing the number of data points doesn't actually improve your information; it just decreases how much of the past can be seen.

If that's really what's behind these suggestions, creating a perception that cool-looking but non-functional data is taking up HUD space, then that implies a better way to address it: add active gameplay to historical sensor data.

I'm wondering how the past data points in a scanner cycle could give the player information that would help them with some game activity. The way that the scanner sweeps shows how a particular signal changes over time. That's not super-useful when it changes because you moved your viewpoint; you already know in that case exactly why the signal changed.

What about collecting data on immobile objects, though?

If different kinds of energy sources emit not a fixed signal, but one that varies in a specific and distinctive way, then historical data points become useful because they're necessary to observe the pattern of change over time that defines the source type of the signal at that frequency band. (This does imply that most frequency bands are shared by several types of energy sources.)

This idea may already have been planned for the single-frequency band scanner mode, in which case... never mind. :)
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Re: Development Update #13: January 2014

#60
Flatfingers wrote:If different kinds of energy sources emit not a fixed signal, but one that varies in a specific and distinctive way, then historical data points become useful because they're necessary to observe the pattern of change over time that defines the source type of the signal at that frequency band. (This does imply that most frequency bands are shared by several types of energy sources.)

This idea may already have been planned for the single-frequency band scanner mode, in which case... never mind. :)
From HUD video inspired thoughts and suggestions:
JoshParnell wrote:the point of having history is that, once I implement time-varying emissions, you will actually be able to look at the pattern buffer and figure out what type of object you're dealing with! To me that's an important feature, as a "professional" explorer should be able to quickly glean a lot of information from the scanner, just by knowing what different emission patterns mean ("oh, that's a research unit signature, there must be a station up ahead" - "oh, looks like a mining laser..maybe there's a populated ore field over there" - "ah, an unstable jump hole...wonder if anyone else has spotted it!!")
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